Are we born "that" way

[Yurt]

the majority of the gay threads end up with one side saying...they are born that way, it is biological, natural...the other side saying, no, it is a choice. the side for natural points to animals as examples. the side for no says animals are animals and not human.

so, are we born "that" way:

murder
rape
lying
cheating
honesty
mischief
reproduction
anal sex
and on and on

how is it that people who believe in evolution believe that homosexuality is an end game (pun intended), that is, there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, it is a choice, our "right" if you will. what about murder and the rest of the list...feel free to include more.

my opinion is, we are born with certain hereditary traits genetically. whether these traits transform our mind, i am unsure. i am unsure because are the traits automatically in our mind or transform our mind, that being, do we not still have choice. is somehow being born with a liking to anal sex, also a genetic inability to be born with choice, that is, not to have anal sex?

if you choose a gay lifestyle, that is your choice. my opinions are known on the government marriage issue.

mods, if you want to move this, ok, just did not know where to put it.

[hjmick]

Now you see, with your list, as with homosexuality, I think both arguments apply, natural or choice. I think there are some people who are psychologically or biologically predisposed to certain behaviors while there are some who choose to behave a certain way. While I can't say that homosexuality is natural as it seemingly goes against nature in that all we are meant to propagate the species, as are all creatures, I do believe that most homosexuals are naturally so.

[Missileman]

the majority of the gay threads end up with one side saying...they are born that way, it is biological, natural...the other side saying, no, it is a choice. the side for natural points to animals as examples. the side for no says animals are animals and not human.

so, are we born "that" way:

murder
rape
lying
cheating
honesty
mischief
reproduction
anal sex
and on and on

how is it that people who believe in evolution believe that homosexuality is an end game (pun intended), that is, there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, it is a choice, our "right" if you will. what about murder and the rest of the list...feel free to include more.

my opinion is, we are born with certain hereditary traits genetically. whether these traits transform our mind, i am sure. i am unsure because if the traits form the in our mind or transform our mind, do we not still have choice. is somehow being born with a liking to anal sex, also a genetic inability to be born with choice, that is, not to have anal sex?

if you choose a gay lifestyle, that is your choice. my opinions are known on the government marriage issue.

mods, if you want to move this, ok, just did not know where to put it.

The premise of your question is flawed. I don't think your going to find anyone who will argue that heterosexuality is anything other than an innate quality in heterosexuals. Heterosexuality isn't judged morally. The people who practice it are, based on the circumstances of the sex, i.e. underage, unwed, etc.

Why should someone have to choose to deny their nature (if they are born that way, as I believe they are, then by definition it is their nature) if they can find willing adults who want the same thing?

Why not judge the individuals who practice homosexuality based on the circumstances of the sex and deem it moral if it is within a committed, monogamous relationship?

[manu1959]

The premise of your question is flawed. I don't think your going to find anyone who will argue that heterosexuality is anything other than an innate quality in heterosexuals. Heterosexuality isn't judged morally. The people who practice it are, based on the circumstances of the sex, i.e. underage, unwed, etc.

Why should someone have to choose to deny their nature (if they are born that way, as I believe they are, then by definition it is their nature) if they can find willing adults who want the same thing?

Why not judge the individuals who practice homosexuality based on the circumstances of the sex and deem it moral if it is within a committed, monogamous relationship?

why does it have to be committed and monogamous....hell why does it have to be moral?

[Missileman]

why does it have to be committed and monogamous....hell why does it have to be moral?

That is the moral standard for heterosexual sex...it's seems reasonable to apply the same standard.

[gabosaurus]

All of Yurt's listed traits are developed. I can't think of any genetic traits that would lead to criminal activity. Though medical research is still open to the idea.

Too many DP posters are hung up on the moral/Biblical implications of homosexuality. You totally ignore the genetic research of such.
Up until 40 years or so ago, it was thought that being left-handed was a "learned" aberration. Parents and teachers alike tried to force left-handed people to function with their right hands.
What about genetic birth diseases? Shouldn't these people come out of the closet and stop wasting our time?

No one is ever "converted" to homosexuality. Nor are they "cured." They might pretend to be. Or proclaim so for social and moral reasons.
Look at people like Larry Craig. Dude has obviously been in the closet for a very long time. Even adapted a very anti-gay stance to cover his tracks.
There are numerous past closet gays who have married and produced children. Some of the most macho icons of Hollywood have turned out to be gay.

It's a genetic trait. Just like gender, skin color, hair color, health traits, etc.
You can only bury yourself in religious fervor so deep.

[Gaffer]

I believe in evolution and I believe homos are unnatural. Sex is 99% mental. Sex among animals is instinctual. Only humans are able to think about it and make it normal or deviant. Animals are not capable of lust, that is a purely human trait.

[Yurt]

Now you see, with your list, as with homosexuality, I think both arguments apply, natural or choice. I think there are some people who are psychologically or biologically predisposed to certain behaviors while there are some who choose to behave a certain way. While I can't say that homosexuality is natural as it seemingly goes against nature in that all we are meant to propagate the species, as are all creatures, I do believe that most homosexuals are naturally so.

you sound like a politician.

you - can't say, -but- you believe... that homosexuality is natural. interesting, possibly a true statement. we are not "god" or "gods"..... so we cannot say what is or is not nature? is this what you are saying?

is there a way of knowing, e.g., from the bible and/or another source? some say the bible answers all, others say it is hogwash, harry potter....

[hjmick]

You thought I sounded like a politician before...

What I mean to say is, while the act of homosexuality is in and of itself unnatural, as it does not lend itself to the continuation of the species, which seems to be one of the base functions of all animals, I do believe that the majority of those who identify themselves as homosexual find it to be natural rather than a choice. At the same time, I also believe that there are some in society who choose the lifestyle. A rudimentary but crude example would prison. Everyone is aware that previously heterosexual men who find themselves incarcerated for a long period of time often choose to find sexual pleasure with each other.

Of course you also have the "nurture" argument...

As for the biblical aspects of the argument, as I am not a religious man,I shall refrain from that part of the discussion. I bear no one any ill will in regards to their beliefs and I respect their right to worship.


Vote for ME!

[Missileman]

I believe in evolution and I believe homos are unnatural. Sex is 99% mental. Sex among animals is instinctual. Only humans are able to think about it and make it normal or deviant. Animals are not capable of lust, that is a purely human trait.

Are you saying that you believe it impossible for heterosexuals to give birth to homosexuals because of heredity?

[Mr. P]

Sorry Yurt Thread.

[Yurt]

gabosaurus;264778]All of Yurt's listed traits are developed. I can't think of any genetic traits that would lead to criminal activity. Though medical research is still open to the idea.

really, do you have a link or is that your opinion?

Too many DP posters are hung up on the moral/Biblical implications of homosexuality. You totally ignore the genetic research of such.

stupid statement given this thread. way to win friends and influence people gabs.

Up until 40 years or so ago, it was thought that being left-handed was a "learned" aberration. Parents and teachers alike tried to force left-handed people to function with their right hands.
What about genetic birth diseases? Shouldn't these people come out of the closet and stop wasting our time?

fair enough. so because ONE thing was wrong, all other things MUST be wrong... is that right?

No one is ever "converted" to homosexuality. Nor are they "cured." They might pretend to be. Or proclaim so for social and moral reasons.

pure opinion, nothing more. that is like saying no one is cured from wanting to have sex with a 13 year old, or maybe 9 year old. oh wait, you do support that? so, do you support having 9-13 having sex? are you saying that to not want that is not natural.... would love to see your science on tthat....

Look at people like Larry Craig. Dude has obviously been in the closet for a very long time. Even adapted a very anti-gay stance to cover his tracks.
There are numerous past closet gays who have married and produced children. Some of the most macho icons of Hollywood have turned out to be gay.

so fucking what... tell us exactly how those stats disprove the above. you can't. i don't care if guys live in the closet or beat macho dicks, gabs, your point is that it is natural.

It's a genetic trait. Just like gender, skin color, hair color, health traits, etc.
You can only bury yourself in religious fervor so deep.

right, let all child molesters free, its just a trait....

[glockmail]

Evolutionary speaking, it is impossible to be born gay, unless it is an abboration, and in that case, should not be encouraged.

[avatar4321]

I have always thought the natural/unnatural argument is a red hering.

Being natural doesnt mean it's good. There are lots of natural activities that are not good. Lying, cheating, violence, intolerance, hatred, laziness, etc are all natural. That doesnt mean they are good. It doesnt excuse people who act like that.

What makes human beings amazing is the fact that we can change our nature. This is especially applicable to Christianity which is centered around an Atonement and empowerment to change human nature and be born again.

If we buy the argument that we can't oppose homosexuality because it's natural, then using that same argument they cant be upset when people are intolerant, angry, and violent towards homosexuals because all of those reactions are likewise natural. (I might even argue more natural). Is that really what you want to be arguing?

[darin]

I have always thought the natural/unnatural argument is a red hering.

Being natural doesnt mean it's good. There are lots of natural activities that are not good. Lying, cheating, violence, intolerance, hatred, laziness, etc are all natural. That doesnt mean they are good. It doesnt excuse people who act like that.

What makes human beings amazing is the fact that we can change our nature. This is especially applicable to Christianity which is centered around an Atonement and empowerment to change human nature and be born again.

If we buy the argument that we can't oppose homosexuality because it's natural, then using that same argument they cant be upset when people are intolerant, angry, and violent towards homosexuals because all of those reactions are likewise natural. (I might even argue more natural). Is that really what you want to be arguing?