Hydrogen Power and Mazda 9 Rotary Engine

[darin]

What's an R6?

[Kathianne]

What's an R6?

Sorry you have it right. It's a Mazda 6 sport wagon. I think I've read too many of your posts. As I said, I don't really know much about cars, with the exception of looks, costs, and changing the oil. Oh I wash it too.

[darin]

lol No worries. That Maz6 Wagon is pretty cool.

The NEW Mazda6 will be something like a poor(er) man's lexus.

[glockmail]

……

Funny, I tried to find out more about the 70's, found a site called triplezoom or something like that. They speak only of rotary, but then pistons come up. I probably don't know enough about cars to even read it well.

Ford bought the concept from the inventor (Wankel) back in the 60's, spent millions on it, realized that it had efficiency and emissions problems, so sold it to Mazda for 49% of their stock. Mazda marketed the technology and was initially successful, then scaled it back to only their sports car (which is really just a “sporty car”). (I'm sure someone here will pick that apart and find a slight error in history and bash me with it, but so be it- the nuts and bolts of the matter are factually correct.)

In any event, inventors have come up with all sorts of internal combustion engine configurations, all of them based on the simple principle of compressing a fuel air mixture, igniting it, and pushing the exhaust out while collecting mechanical energy. These range from a positive displacement (piston) to a pure axial configuration (turbine), and each is efficient only within a defined rotational speed (rpms). The Wankel engine is close to the piston engine within this range.

The power to weight ratio tends to increase substantially over this range. On the high rpm range, the turbine, and its purely thrust only sister jet engine, can develop huge power/ weight ratios. Darin is confusing efficiency with power to weight ratio.

The Wankel has the inherent problems of sealing between the rotor and the stationary chamber. When the engine runs the rotor tends to heats up faster than the chamber. Plus, at the same temperature difference the smaller rotor “grows” less than the larger chamber. Initial designs developed problems with seizing when the rotor got hot and “grew” too big for the chamber. Designers solved this problem by building the rotor out of iron and the chamber out of aluminum (which “grows” larger than iron at a given temperature difference).

Mazda’s done a great job tinkering with the configuration using different materials and such, but have never achieved the efficiency of the old piston engine. The piston has rings that seal against the cylinder, and the rings are basically springs which keep an even seal as the piston heats up differently than the cylinder. I always figured the Wankel engineers would try and configure some type of compressible metal between the two parts to act as the “ring”. Maybe they have, as I have not been following along with their developments.

Maybe Darin the self proclaimed “car guy” can enlighten us on current technology.

[manu1959]

Ford bought the concept from the inventor (Wankel) back in the 60's, spent millions on it, realized that it had efficiency and emissions problems, so sold it to Mazda for 49% of their stock. Mazda marketed the technology and was initially successful, then scaled it back to only their sports car (which is really just a “sporty car”). (I'm sure someone here will pick that apart and find a slight error in history and bash me with it, but so be it- the nuts and bolts of the matter are factually correct.)

In any event, inventors have come up with all sorts of internal combustion engine configurations, all of them based on the simple principle of compressing a fuel air mixture, igniting it, and pushing the exhaust out while collecting mechanical energy. These range from a positive displacement (piston) to a pure axial configuration (turbine), and each is efficient only within a defined rotational speed (rpms). The Wankel engine is close to the piston engine within this range.

The power to weight ratio tends to increase substantially over this range. On the high rpm range, the turbine, and its purely thrust only sister jet engine, can develop huge power/ weight ratios. Darin is confusing efficiency with power to weight ratio.

The Wankel has the inherent problems of sealing between the rotor and the stationary chamber. When the engine runs the rotor tends to heats up faster than the chamber. Plus, at the same temperature difference the smaller rotor “grows” less than the larger chamber. Initial designs developed problems with seizing when the rotor got hot and “grew” too big for the chamber. Designers solved this problem by building the rotor out of iron and the chamber out of aluminum (which “grows” larger than iron at a given temperature difference).

Mazda’s done a great job tinkering with the configuration using different materials and such, but have never achieved the efficiency of the old piston engine. The piston has rings that seal against the cylinder, and the rings are basically springs which keep an even seal as the piston heats up differently than the cylinder. I always figured the Wankel engineers would try and configure some type of compressible metal between the two parts to act as the “ring”. Maybe they have, as I have not been following along with their developments.

Maybe Darin the self proclaimed “car guy” can enlighten us on current technology.

ya ford is doing real well these days......

[darin]

Current technology on what? Of what? The Rotary engine? You obviously searched the net for the info you just posted. Try scrolling down, or googling "Renesis" if you want/need more info.

[Kathianne]

Off current topic and an aside. When I posted the original post it was to my way of thinking, those getting ahead of the curve. Mazda seems to be leading the way, then again there is the Chevy Volt.

[darin]

Off current topic and an aside. When I posted the original post it was to my way of thinking, those getting ahead of the curve. Mazda seems to be leading the way, then again there is the Chevy Volt.

I dunno. I mean, I'm scared of Mazda; after dealing with my RX8. Although I bet MOST car makers try to avoid warranty coverage of their products. I've had a LOT of crap to put up with on the rx8 re: getting warranty coverage.

For that reason, I'll likely never buy another 'new' mazda. I'm scared of the quality of worksmanship. Another mazda thing that bugs me: They seem to think adding power to a car automatically reduces the subjetive handling capability of the car.

[glockmail]

Current technology on what? Of what? The Rotary engine? You obviously searched the net for the info you just posted. Try scrolling down, or googling "Renesis" if you want/need more info.

1. Current sealing technology, silly boy! I guess I gave you too much credit.
2. No net search required. The source of my information is from fluid mechanics, thermodynamics, materials science coupled with my practical knowledge of engine technology. Maybe you can “google” some of the terms that I used and prove to yourself that some of us are capable of original thought.

[darin]

Are you simply going to insult and attack me in this thread? Is that your plan?

[glockmail]

Revealing the truth is now an insult?

You always have the option of banning me from this thread (or from the forum at large) if you can't handle it.

[darin]

Nobody deserves the harassment you give me. Keep it up and you'll get your wish - your wish to play the victim.

[glockmail]

How have I harassed you, dear boy? By proving that your self proclamations are hot air? Please help me to understand how revealing the truth is inappropriate in a political forum.

[Kathianne]

Revealing the truth is now an insult?

You always have the option of banning me from this thread (or from the forum at large) if you can't handle it.

This should be dealt with in pm's, as an accusation of staff. Please take it there.

[darin]

Kath - he won't get it. He'll keep pushing until he's banned from the board, then play the victim card. He hates EVERYONE smarter than he is.