Dispensationalism: Apostasy in the church

[TheSage]

It isn't a word game. Jesus did not come to institute rebellion.

But he DID come to die for EVERYONE'S sins, including the Jews'.

It is a word game. he was a rebel. He rebelled against the rabbis of his day. And he preached rebellion against perversion of god's word. Why are you so hung up on denying this obvious truth?

[Nienna]

It is a word game. he was a rebel. He rebelled against the rabbis of his day. And he preached rebellion against perversion of god's word. Why are you so hung up on denying this obvious truth?

Why are you so hung up on FIGHTING? I am AGREEING with the main point of your thread?

[darin]

Why are you so hung up on FIGHTING?

I feel he's MUCH more concerned with BEING RIGHT than he is with The Truth.

[TheSage]

Why are you so hung up on FIGHTING? I am AGREEING with the main point of your thread?

Are you? Are you asking me what you're in agreement with?

Jesus definitely rebelled againt the pharisees of his day. That's kind of the main narrative element of chrisitianity. He was not a good little jew, he was a rebel.

One can rebel against some things, yet submit to others.

It takes two to tango, by the way.

[TheSage]

I feel he's MUCH more concerned with BEING RIGHT than he is with The Truth.

What's the Truth that you're referring to here? Jews are our spiritual masters? You can believe that, but that's not christ's teaching.

[darin]

What's the Truth that you're referring to here? Jews are our spiritual masters? You can believe that, but that's not christ's teaching.

The truth is - VERY FEW people are preaching what you're afraid of. I've NEVER been to a church - and I've been to probably over 100 in my life - who taught what you consider to be 'widespread'. The truth is, the conspiracy you LIVE to promote probably does NOT exist, except in the minds of people who WANT it to exist for the sheer DRAMA of it.

I believe people create conspiracy theories to make themselves feel better - ellite...because they become somehow 'special' - chosen? one of the FEW who "know what's going on"

[Nienna]

Are you? Are you asking me what you're in agreement with?

What I inferred was that you are trying to a) make people aware of the philosophy of dispensationalism, and b) claim that it is a false teaching. If I was wrong about your points, I really do apologize. I am in full agreement with the two above points.

Jesus definitely rebelled againt the pharisees of his day. That's kind of the main narrative element of chrisitianity. He was not a good little jew, he was a rebel.

One can rebel against some things, yet submit to others.

Jesus was a VERY good Jew. He fulfilled all the requirements of Jewish law. He made sacrifices, went to Temple, observed feast days. But, when he came, he came to show that people can follow rules and still be in love with their OWN authority (Pharisees). Thus following Jewish law becomes a way of promoting the SELF, instead of living in obedience to God. This was what Jesus put down, the self-serving, praise-loving attitudes of those who thought too well of themselves and too little of God's sovereignty.

THIS is the main element of Christianity: the surrender of OUR wills to God. All the stories, the battles, the passionate words... they ALL point to living in obedience to Abba.

One can only rebel against something if one accepts that entity's authority. A Christian only accepts the authority placed over him by God. If a Christian opposes a governing entity, it is done without reference to SELF. It is done because God wills him to do a job. A person cannot live in the Spirit if he is filled with rebellion.

It takes two to tango, by the way.

Jason....

[TheSage]

Jesus was a VERY good Jew. He fulfilled all the requirements of Jewish law.

No he wasn't. No he didn't. He was constantly saying how the laws they had created had perverted the intentions of god.

http://www.thestoryofjesus.com/part6_76.html

76. Scribes Criticize Jesus

Jesus returned to Galilee where he continued his ministry. But he did not return to Judea because the Jews were determined to kill him.

A group of Pharisees came from Jerusalem and joined some scribes. They began to question Jesus. They had seen some of Jesus’ disciples eat their food with unwashed hands. They considered this a defilement and rebellion against the tradition of the elders.

The Pharisees and the scribes asked Jesus:

Why don’t your disciples follow the traditions of the elders?

Jesus told them:

Why do you disobey the commandment of God? Because of your traditions? You hypocrites. The prophet Isaiah was right about you when he said:

This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

They worship me in vain, teaching instead the precepts and principles of men.

You push away the commandments of God and hold fast the traditions of men. You would rather obey man than obey God.

For God, through Moses, said:

Honor your father and your mother, let anyone who speaks evil of his father or mother be put to death.

But you have undone the clear intention of Gods law with your own traditions.

You refuse to support your parents in their old age by calling the money that should be used for your parents a special gift to God.

That allows you to keep the gift for yourself instead of using it to support your parents.

In this way you insult God and create a tradition that undoes God’s purpose that you should support your parents in their old age.

This is just one example of the ways you subvert the true intentions of God’s commands with your own traditions.

Jesus called the crowds of people to him.

Jesus said to them:

It is not what goes into a man’s mouth that corrupts or defiles him, it is what comes out of his mouth that corrupts and defiles.

Jesus then entered into the home where he was staying. His disciples came to him and said:

Did you know that you greatly offended the Pharisees by what you said?

Jesus said:

Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. Leave the Pharisees alone; they are blind guides. The blind guides and the blind who they lead will both fall into a pit.

Peter said to Jesus:

Tell us the meaning of what you said to the Pharisees.

Jesus said:

You don’t understand that it is not the outside things that defile a man but the things that are in his heart.

If a man eats meat, it goes into his stomach and through his digestive system and is then flushed out of his system. It does not go through the heart of a man.

He made sacrifices, went to Temple, observed feast days. But, when he came, he came to show that people can follow rules and still be in love with their OWN authority (Pharisees). Thus following Jewish law becomes a way of promoting the SELF, instead of living in obedience to God.



This was what Jesus put down, the self-serving, praise-loving attitudes of those who thought too well of themselves and too little of God's sovereignty.

This "putting down " of the jewish law because it's self promoting is what I'm calling rebellion. It was a serious rebellion in the society of that time. The pharisees considered it rebellion. It was rebellion. If you can't admit it, that's fine. You're only hindering your own perception of reality.

THIS is the main element of Christianity: the surrender of OUR wills to God.

I also think we should remain vigilant and stand against the very same self serving laws jesus stood against is his day, The Jewish laws.

All the stories, the battles, the passionate words... they ALL point to living in obedience to Abba.

Dancing queen?

One can only rebel against something if one accepts that entity's authority.

Some consider that non acceptance of the entity's authority to be rebellion. Again, you're just playing word games.

A Christian only accepts the authority placed over him by God. If a Christian opposes a governing entity, it is done without reference to SELF.

What do you mean? Can he not say "I choose to follow god, and not the self serving rules of men"? That's exactly what jesus did. Is he a bad example?

It is done because God wills him to do a job. A person cannot live in the Spirit if he is filled with rebellion.

I disagree. Sometimes the spirit is WHY people rebel against illegitimate authorities.

Jason....

Don't sadface me. Be an adult. You're fighting too, and poorly.

[TheSage]

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mine/jesus.htm
To Jewish leaders, Jesus was a troublemaker, a subversive who was undermining respect for the Sabbath and religious rites, an arrogant man who claimed that he above all other men was favored by God, another in a long line of messiahs who had been condemned and executed. To the Romans who ruled Palestine, Jesus was a political agitator who could ignite Jewish messianic expectations into a revolt against Rome. (It is likely that several of Jesus' early followers were Zealots, and the Romans may have viewed Jesus as a Zealot leader.) After Jewish leaders turned Jesus over to the Roman authorities, the Roman procurator, Pontius Pilate, sentenced him to death by crucifixion.

...
Missionaries of this dissenting Christian movement within Judaism were called Apostles-those sent out to preach the gospel, or good news, about Christ. They addressed themselves to Jews and to converts to Judaism who, because they did not adhere fully to Mosaic Law, were not wholly accepted by the Jewish community. Before Christianity could realize the universal implications of Jesus' teachings and become a world religion, as distinct from a Jewish sect, it had to extricate itself from Jewish ritual, politics, and culture.
....

Don't get pulled back in.

[Nienna]

No he wasn't. No he didn't. He was constantly saying how the laws they had created had perverted the intentions of god.

Are you saying he did not observe the feast days, get circumcised, make sacrifices, etc? He obeyed the laws, until GOD told him to do otherwise. He did nothing on his own authority.

The reason that the Law perverted God's intentions was that it put something between Him and man. Thus man felt he didn't need to look to God, depend on God, be grateful to God, as long as he obeyed the rules. The rules in themselves weren't necessarily bad. It was the people who had become perverted because they ONLY followed the rules, and no longer sought to make sure that the rules were in accordance with God's will.

This "putting down " of the jewish law because it's self promoting is what I'm calling rebellion. It was a serious rebellion in the society of that time. The pharisees considered it rebellion. It was rebellion. If you can't admit it, that's fine. You're only hindering your own perception of reality.

But JESUS was not in rebellion. The PHARISEES were in rebellion. It was they who had perverted God's intentions. The Jewish leaders of the time considered it to be rebellion because they considered themselves to be the authorities. Yet, they couldn't even see that they were the ones in rebellion, and Jesus was the one who remained faithful.

You don’t understand that it is not the outside things that defile a man but the things that are in his heart.

This is exactly what I meant. The Jewish leaders were grasping for power in their hearts. They wanted to subvert obedience to God in favor of their OWN set of rules. In contrast, there was no rebellion in Jesus' heart. He came only to do the will of the One who sent him, and he succeeded. He did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but took the form of a slave. That is NOT rebellion. He held onto none of his rights, took no power for himself, not even power or rights that he DESERVED. There was NO rebellion in Jesus.

This is NOT a minor point, and I am not simply quibbling over words. Unless God builds the house, he labors in vain who builds the house. Unless the battle is God's battle, it is useless, and perhaps even detrimental to fight.

I also think we should remain vigilant and stand against the very same self serving laws jesus stood against is his day, The Jewish laws.

We can certainly work to make sure that no Talmudic government is set up over us.

Dancing queen?

lol! I never got into that band.

Some consider that non acceptance of the entity's authority to be rebellion. Again, you're just playing word games.

I am not concerned with what some consider. There is a chain of authority, instituted by God. If, for instance, my husband counteracts God's way, I am not longer bound by my husband's authority, because he is in rebellion against the higher authority. My opposition to his rebellion is not rebellion, itself.

What do you mean? Can he not say "I choose to follow god, and not the self serving rules of men"? That's exactly what jesus did. Is he a bad example?

What I mean is that I am not choosing this path on my OWN authority, but out of obedience to God. I do not oppose "self-serving rules"; those rules are in opposition to me, because I am in Christ. I do not rebel.

I disagree. Sometimes the spirit is WHY people rebel against illegitimate authorities.

There is a time to fight, a time to stand in opposition to some earthly authorities. But again, these actions are done out of obedience, not out of rebellion, because "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment upon themselves." (Romans 13:1-2) God may use His people as tools to bring down ungodly authorities, but we are to act with respect, not in rebellion and with disdain for those who are in power over us.

You have to believe me on this... I have walked this line for YEARS.

Don't sadface me. Be an adult. You're fighting too, and poorly.

I am disagreeing with you on this point, but I bear you no ill will.

[TheSage]

Are you saying he did not observe the feast days, get circumcised, make sacrifices, etc? He obeyed the laws, until GOD told him to do otherwise. He did nothing on his own authority.

He obeyed some of the laws, but he also REBELLED against some, and that was considered REBELLIOUS as one might imagine, considering the religious laws at that time were not considered a "pick and choose" situation.

The reason that the Law perverted God's intentions was that it put something between Him and man. Thus man felt he didn't need to look to God, depend on God, be grateful to God, as long as he obeyed the rules. The rules in themselves weren't necessarily bad.

No. THe rules themselves were bad. They fostered elitism and guaranteed the perpetuation of an elite class.

It was the people who had become perverted because they ONLY followed the rules, and no longer sought to make sure that the rules were in accordance with God's will.



But JESUS was not in rebellion. The PHARISEES were in rebellion.

It really depends on your point of view, but I understand what you mean. You're still just playing word games.

It was they who had perverted God's intentions. The Jewish leaders of the time considered it to be rebellion because they considered themselves to be the authorities. Yet, they couldn't even see that they were the ones in rebellion, and Jesus was the one who remained faithful.



This is exactly what I meant. The Jewish leaders were grasping for power in their hearts. They wanted to subvert obedience to God in favor of their OWN set of rules. In contrast, there was no rebellion in Jesus' heart. He came only to do the will of the One who sent him, and he succeeded. He did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but took the form of a slave. That is NOT rebellion. He held onto none of his rights, took no power for himself, not even power or rights that he DESERVED. There was NO rebellion in Jesus.

This is NOT a minor point, and I am not simply quibbling over words. Unless God builds the house, he labors in vain who builds the house. Unless the battle is God's battle, it is useless, and perhaps even detrimental to fight.



We can certainly work to make sure that no Talmudic government is set up over us.


lol! I never got into that band.

I am not concerned with what some consider. There is a chain of authority, instituted by God. If, for instance, my husband counteracts God's way, I am not longer bound by my husband's authority, because he is in rebellion against the higher authority. My opposition to his rebellion is not rebellion, itself.

Nice word games. But jesus was still in rebellion against the pharisees, even if you will not allow yourself to use the word, which is descriptive and accurate.

What I mean is that I am not choosing this path on my OWN authority, but out of obedience to God. I do not oppose "self-serving rules"; those rules are in opposition to me, because I am in Christ. I do not rebel.

I believe it's fair to say you're in rebellion against the self serving rules. That word describes the situation.

There is a time to fight, a time to stand in opposition to some earthly authorities. But again, these actions are done out of obedience, not out of rebellion, because "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment upon themselves." (Romans 13:1-2) God may use His people as tools to bring down ungodly authorities, but we are to act with respect, not in rebellion and with disdain for those who are in power over us.

You have to believe me on this... I have walked this line for YEARS.

I just think you're being stubborn.

I don't know why you have a hangup about using the right words for things, but I am glad you're against a talmud based theocracy.

[Nienna]

He obeyed some of the laws, but he also REBELLED against some, and that was considered REBELLIOUS as one might imagine, considering the religious laws at that time were not considered a "pick and choose" situation.

Please give an example of a law against which Jesus rebelled.

It really depends on your point of view, but I understand what you mean. You're still just playing word games

No, it doesn't depend on any PERSON'S point of view. GOD establishes authority, and allows authorities their power.

Nice word games. But jesus was still in rebellion against the pharisees, even if you will not allow yourself to use the word, which is descriptive and accurate.

I used the word 14 times just in the last post.

I just think you're being stubborn.

I HAVE been accused of that before.

I don't know why you have a hangup about using the right words for things, but I am glad you're against a talmud based theocracy.

:shaking head: LOL!

[TheSage]

Jesus taught that the entire "tradition of the elders" or Oral law, what became the talmud basically, is entirely unnecessary. This was in direct rebllion against the Pharisee temple power structure of the time.

Rebel. Rebellion. Rebellious. Reba.

[Nienna]

Jesus taught that the entire "tradition of the elders" or Oral law, what became the talmud basically, is entirely unnecessary. This was in direct rebllion against the Pharisee temple power structure of the time.

"I have not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it." No rebellion.

Rebel. Rebellion. Rebellious.

love joy peace patience kindness goodness gentleness faithfulness self-control

Reba.

one of the Midianite chiefs slain by the Israelites in the wilderness... now HE was a rebel.

[TheSage]

"I have not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it." No rebellion.


love joy peace patience kindness goodness gentleness faithfulness self-control


one of the Midianite chiefs slain by the Israelites in the wilderness... now HE was a rebel.

Yes rebellion, against what he did not consider necessary law, the oral law or traditions of the elders. He openly violated these. He openly violated certain cleanliness laws. And he introduced the notion of breaking the law if the situation warranted it according to one's own personal jugement, which was not the prevailing view of the pharisees who were much more strict.