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  1. #1
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    Default Libertarian vs. Republican (Emmett vs. Crin)

    It would be impossible for me to list all the threads where Crin and I have entered into this conversation. So I won't try however i would think it certainly qualifies us to take up this debate on this thread and start here. I'll ask the first question as I have challenged Crin to this one on one debate. I feel this is an issue that more and more Conservatives should be taking up however not with intention to devide at all but to unite. America continues to move further to the left everyday. I believe we as Conservatives are as much to blame for this as the Liberals we critisize as the culprits. Our positions need "fine tuning" and have become distorted in the sea of confusion created by watching our liberty slip away a little at a time.

    For those of you who will read the following posts over the next few months or however long it takes me to convert this gentleman, please take note as to what a "debate" is. If you are looking for namecalling, rhetorical innuendo and hateful behavior, you will no doubt be bored out of your mind and I suugest you make your way back to one of those "other" sites. That will not take place during this discussion. I do however expect it to become quite "heated" at times for I have reached my limit with this gentleman and fully intend to "win" this discussion.

    Crin is my friend. He is man of good moral fortitude and conservative values which I respect him for. We have however on many occasions, disagreed about the basic concept of Libertarianism and its value to the political structure of American society. I have called him out so to speak to debate this issue once and for all. We have always agreed to disagree in the past concerning this issue and I realize today that that won't do. I am willing to make the ultimate bet with you Crin. My Libertarian Party card against your Republican one. Sort of like "pink slips" if you may. If I can not convince you to become a card carrying member of the Libertarian Party I will vote Republican in the next election and in each one that follows until the day I can convince you to become a Libertarian. I warn you sir...I have done my homework and stand ready with an arsenol of informative and relevent information which I believe will convince you that I am right and YOU are wrong.

    So in parity to the Charlie Daniels classic "The devil came down to Georgia", I am the Libertarian who is already in Georgia and looking for a soul to steal, my first question is this;


    Crin, why will you not become a member of the Libertarian party?
    If you continue to think the way you have always thought, you will continue to get what you have always got!

    A government big enough to provide you everything you need is big enough to take everything you have!

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    Quote Originally Posted by emmett View Post
    It would be impossible for me to list all the threads where Crin and I have entered into this conversation. So I won't try however i would think it certainly qualifies us to take up this debate on this thread and start here. I'll ask the first question as I have challenged Crin to this one on one debate. I feel this is an issue that more and more Conservatives should be taking up however not with intention to devide at all but to unite. America continues to move further to the left everyday. I believe we as Conservatives are as much to blame for this as the Liberals we critisize as the culprits. Our positions need "fine tuning" and have become distorted in the sea of confusion created by watching our liberty slip away a little at a time.

    For those of you who will read the following posts over the next few months or however long it takes me to convert this gentleman, please take note as to what a "debate" is. If you are looking for namecalling, rhetorical innuendo and hateful behavior, you will no doubt be bored out of your mind and I suugest you make your way back to one of those "other" sites. That will not take place during this discussion. I do however expect it to become quite "heated" at times for I have reached my limit with this gentleman and fully intend to "win" this discussion.

    Crin is my friend. He is man of good moral fortitude and conservative values which I respect him for. We have however on many occasions, disagreed about the basic concept of Libertarianism and its value to the political structure of American society. I have called him out so to speak to debate this issue once and for all. We have always agreed to disagree in the past concerning this issue and I realize today that that won't do. I am willing to make the ultimate bet with you Crin. My Libertarian Party card against your Republican one. Sort of like "pink slips" if you may. If I can not convince you to become a card carrying member of the Libertarian Party I will vote Republican in the next election and in each one that follows until the day I can convince you to become a Libertarian. I warn you sir...I have done my homework and stand ready with an arsenol of informative and relevent information which I believe will convince you that I am right and YOU are wrong.

    So in parity to the Charlie Daniels classic "The devil came down to Georgia", I am the Libertarian who is already in Georgia and looking for a soul to steal, my first question is this;


    Crin, why will you not become a member of the Libertarian party?

    Allow to start off by saying that I voted for Emmett as my favorite DP'er and as the person who makes the best impression on DP in the 2008 year end awards. Emmett is also the person I would most like to sit down over a cup of coffee and just chit chat with all day. I have the utmost respect for Emmett and his opinions. I just disagree with him about a few things and the Libertarian Party.

    I'm not saying that it is impossible for me to become a Libertarian, I'm just saying that with their current stands on abortion and homosexual rights I won't.

    I'm by no means a hardcore Republican and if I ever found a party that was more aligned with my views and actually had a chance to win, I would jump ship immediately. I almost joined the Constitution party but it didn't even have representation in all states and they were to stupid to vote for a guy who would have brought them national prominence, Judge Roy Moore.

    I take exception with Conservatives being defined by what Republicans do. The Republican Party barely represents Conservative views but they still maintain a pro-life position and marriage between a man and woman only. If those things change I will no longer be a Republican. I am far more Libertarian then I am Republican but I cannot in good conscience support any party that is pro-choice or pro gay-marriage.

    Clarify something for me Emmett. You keep making Republicans and Conservatives synonymous yet you call yourself a Conservative and slam Republicans. How does that work?

    I think I answered your question and I guess we can start here since I'm going to go nap right now,

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by PostmodernProphet View Post
    I see that as key, myself....I think economically and politically there is little difference between Libertarian and Reagan style Republican, but on social issues the Libertarians are too liberal for my tastes....
    i may remind you PMP, with all due respect that this is a ONE on ONE debate in the ONE on ONE thread. With a smile I ask you to please not try and assist me in dispatching Crin as I fully intend to do it myself.


    Now to answer your question Crin. I so sometimes slam Republicans who claim to be Conservative. I do also categorize them together in most cases because the republican Party is / was founded in Conservative beliefs. I also think the Republican Party of today has allowed itself to "give in" to far too many of the left's political agenda. They do this to try and elastize their agenda and make it more appealing to borderline voters. It seems that everyone seems to want to "adjust" their philosophy by who will vote for them. Many voters compromise their true beliefs just so thye can get as much of their agenda as possible by voting for a more popular party. Such as yourself! You said you would join a party who didn't support Abortion, Gay Rights and ACTUALLY HAD A CHANCE TO WIN!

    That is the main part of your stance that I disagree with. So....I'll ask you this;

    Should it be against the law to be gay? What should the penalty be? Prison(?) Ah......I got news for you/ There is a bunch of queers in prison. Hords of them. Should we allow them to occupy a prison cell and support them?

    How about Abortion? Illegal? Prison? Should we put the 17 year old in prison? How about her mom? Put her there too. Support them.

    Please....I'm dying to hear your argument in this regard.


    Prison cells are already scarce. Sentences for theives, robbers and rapists are being reduced all the time to allow the turnover rate to accomodate more prisoners. Am I to understand that by making these other activities illegal you are suggesting we should put these people in prison. What crimes should we slack off on next to accomodate a place for them?


    What other lifestyle issues should we outlaw? Prison for them too I suppose. Let's see....we could just legislate our way to everyone living nice clean and pure lives then....could we not?


    Your turn.
    If you continue to think the way you have always thought, you will continue to get what you have always got!

    A government big enough to provide you everything you need is big enough to take everything you have!

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    Quote Originally Posted by emmett View Post
    i may remind you PMP, with all due respect that this is a ONE on ONE debate in the ONE on ONE thread. With a smile I ask you to please not try and assist me in dispatching Crin as I fully intend to do it myself.


    Now to answer your question Crin. I so sometimes slam Republicans who claim to be Conservative. I do also categorize them together in most cases because the republican Party is / was founded in Conservative beliefs. I also think the Republican Party of today has allowed itself to "give in" to far too many of the left's political agenda. They do this to try and elastize their agenda and make it more appealing to borderline voters. It seems that everyone seems to want to "adjust" their philosophy by who will vote for them. Many voters compromise their true beliefs just so thye can get as much of their agenda as possible by voting for a more popular party. Such as yourself! You said you would join a party who didn't support Abortion, Gay Rights and ACTUALLY HAD A CHANCE TO WIN!

    That is the main part of your stance that I disagree with. So....I'll ask you this;

    Should it be against the law to be gay? What should the penalty be? Prison(?) Ah......I got news for you/ There is a bunch of queers in prison. Hords of them. Should we allow them to occupy a prison cell and support them?

    How about Abortion? Illegal? Prison? Should we put the 17 year old in prison? How about her mom? Put her there too. Support them.

    Please....I'm dying to hear your argument in this regard.


    Prison cells are already scarce. Sentences for theives, robbers and rapists are being reduced all the time to allow the turnover rate to accomodate more prisoners. Am I to understand that by making these other activities illegal you are suggesting we should put these people in prison. What crimes should we slack off on next to accomodate a place for them?


    What other lifestyle issues should we outlaw? Prison for them too I suppose. Let's see....we could just legislate our way to everyone living nice clean and pure lives then....could we not?


    Your turn.
    I would treat homosexuals just like any other deviant pedophile. They're not asking to be left alone. They're not just average Americans trying to live their lives. They want to have access to my children and your children so they can corrupt them while in the long term try to recruit them and turn them. Thats the only way they can propagate their specie. I grew up around Lesbians and had friends who were gay. I no what they are and what they want.
    I was about 10 the first time I ever encountered one, who sat there drooling and staring at me like I was a treat. I can still see his face some 35 years later. I was 15 the next time one decided to befriend me and he waited a year before he made a move. I was 17 when the next 2 approached me. I had one that was a friend when I was about 26 who preyed on a neighbor that was married and gave him AIDS just before he died from it.

    They are in my opinion just as bad as any heterosexual pedophile and should be treated the same, even if that means legislating against them. They are not benign, they are a cancer rotting our society and like any cancer they need to be removed as quickly as possible.

    With regards to abortion, yes it should be illegal. Except maybe in the case of the mothers life being at stake, when its one life or another or possibly both then obviously a decision has to be made. In the case of rape, that's tough because God has used the children of rape victims in a marvelous way.

    What is your idea of absolute freedom? Apparently you think there should be some restrictions but that has never come across in your posts until I mentioned yelling, "Fire" or killing a neighbor. I know you are a man of character and wouldn't do those things but others would if there were not restrictions and consequences to those actions.

    I believe that we should have as much liberty as possible without harming or negatively impacting our neighbors.

    I'm gonna be running around tomorrow so I don't know if I'll get back to this until the afternoon or evening.

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    I've run across homosexuals in my life too. I however see them as no more influencial than anyone else whose agenda I disagree with. For instance a theif, a drug user or anyone who may try and influence me (or my children) to do something I know and have taught my children is wrong. I would not allow a homosexual to influence my decision as to how to align myself politically however as that would be adding a notch to their belt so to speak. By saying I would not want their ac tivity outlawed I do not mean to imply that I condone or agree with their behavior. I simply don't care. Government has no right to dictate how a person lives their personal life.

    I believe in serious penalties for pedophiles. A position that one does not think government has a right to dictate personal lifestyle choices does not mean they would be any softer on pedophiles than anyone else. I would probably be much tougher than say...our current laws. I am also aware that there are gay people in every party now, including the Republican one.

    You see, to me...I am not about to allow myself to be swayed by this bahavior. It will not influence my life, my political choices or anything. That is the part that like you...bothers so many Conservatives. You are allowing yourself to be limited in political thinking because of them. I refuse to enpower them in that way. So...that is the difference in this regard. What they do to each other is their business. Making it against the law will not change their thinking. Molestation, Pedophilia and the like would always remain against the law. Libertarians don't condone this by saying they are not against freedom of choice.

    The personal liberty issues surrounding Americans lives are more important to me than my "fear" of homosexuals. I can teach my children right and wrong. I don't need government to do this. It makes the point of homosexuality moot. It just does not matter. Rather it is or is not against the law...it will take place. It isn't against the law now! Rape, Molestation, and being a pedophile is. So what would change? Nothing! It is of the least influencial items on a political prospective. That is my point. There is far too much to be gained by Conservatives to endorse Libertarian philosophy than to be lost by engaging in homophobia.

    A rape victim might have a different prospective than you about being forced to have the child. Again...Freedom of choice.....CHOICE......across the board Crin. Choice is the true LIBERTY. The "right" to make the wrong decision on one's own. Not government! THAT is absolute freedom to me. Being able to choose. How could we take a woman who had been raped and put her in prison for making a decision she was placed in a position to make at no desire of her own? How many prisons do we need to build Crin?

    These two subjects in which we are talking about seem to be allowed way too much emphasis in a Conservative's life to be aware of how much collective liberty we are sacrificing to think that way. Abortion is legal....so is being gay. However other matters of importance, such as our liberty is at stake. our failure to unify in these beliefs is causing us to lose more and more "rights" every day. The Republicans cannot win this social war, they are failing. They don't stand for the core beliefs of American life anymore. Libertarians do! Libertarians stand for the philosophical likeness of the political beliefs of our forefathers. We are not willing to com[promise liberty and in doing so must embrace all choice. All of it! Especially the right to teach our children what is right and wrong. If we do that well enough it willnot matter what social choices are and are not against the law. Our children will do right. They will make the right choices and it won't be "illegal" for them to do so. On our current course my friend...it most certainly could become such.

    Imagine the possibilities under a National Health care system. Government withholding the most precious commodity we have from selected individuals who do not "conform" and have made bad choices such as rather to smoke or eat unhealthy food. It will happen Crin. That is going to happen to your children!!! The United States is going to decide if they live or die should the need arise. My friend...THAT is a much more important issue than whether we can teach them that the aforementioned sins are right or wrong.

    It is counterproductive to continue to allow yourself to prescribe to a party whose agenda does not refuse to compromise on personal liberty. That is all I have ever said here. I do not advocate these choices and never will. That is the freedom I wish to continue to have and am losing every day because people who believe such as I do are afraid to band with me and other Libertarians because they feel they cannot "win". What if John Hancock would have thought like that Crin? What if while during those moments he pondered before placing that signature on that document he would have given into his fear of worrying about winning. he already knew he had very little chance of remaining alive but he knew he was on the side of right.

    What about those young soldiers who spent their last moments on earth engaged in an act that would result in their paying with life to protect the liberty we felt so precious to our existance in the forming of our country? Our ability to choose to live the way we want. Do we not discredit their act by not standing up for absolute liberty? Absolute freedom?
    If you continue to think the way you have always thought, you will continue to get what you have always got!

    A government big enough to provide you everything you need is big enough to take everything you have!

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    If homosexuals kept it just between them, fine, but they don't. They are not satisfied with that. They are insisting on teaching children that it is normal, natural behavior. They want to pound it into their heads in school and make them play games pretending homosexuals are normal. They make children feel bad for thinking homosexuality is wrong. They are trying to do away with terms like mom and dad. I also know how they threaten to rape the children of those who oppose them. My friends were there when they were screaming it the kids and parents. They insist that we accept their deviant behavior as normal and want to silence our opposition to these practices through hate crime legislation.

    We didn’t start this, they started it, when they decided to openly start trying to shove their lifestyle down our throats. They brought the war for our childrens minds to us. We didn’t go looking for this and we didn’t want it. They brought the war for our children to us when they tried to change the definition of marriage. What you seem to forget is that when it was just between them they weren’t satisfied.

    If they would quit trying to pollute the minds of our children and leave them alone I wouldn't have the problem I have with them regardless of personal experience.

    I am not and will not waiver in my opinion of them or how they should be treated until they back off and quit trying to mess with our children. When they quit trying to shove it down our childrens throats and keep it between themselves then I will back off.

    When our kids are exposed to a barrage of propaganda day in and day out they end up succumbing to it at some level, regardless of how much we teach them against something. The peer pressure becomes overwhelming.

    I have also said that they are welcome to come into my church and sit down quietly like everyone else. They are welcome to come and eat with us afterward so long as they mind their manners and don't cause any problems, just like anyone else. If they caused a problem they would be thrown out or arrested just like anyone else. I would make sure of it, since I deal with the problems that arise. We had a couple of lesbians show up right after prop 8 passed. I personally invited them to stay for food, which they did.

    With regards to abortion after rape, thats a very tough position to be in. All I said is that God has wonderfully used some of those children born out of rape.

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    Your position is well documented. It avoids however the question you were initially asked. I am against homosexuality just as much as you are but it does not stop me from recognizing the advantages of a Libertarian platform and how it can influence my other thinking and contribution.

    Homosexuality is not going to go away Crin. It is what it is. Frankly a Libertarian american would not stop communities from voting it to be illegal. Think about that also.

    Don't want to taouch that rape / pregnancy issue do you? Don't blame you. It is a toughy. can't be illegal though. That is my argument.

    So far Crin I am sorry however I don;t feel your argument. I know what your positions are from economic standpoint, taxes, government intrusions and liberty. YOU my friend are a Libertarian. Now where do I mail this application? LOL.

    War on Drugs? This is a category that also prevents many Republicans from subscribing to a Libertarian agenda. What's you position?
    If you continue to think the way you have always thought, you will continue to get what you have always got!

    A government big enough to provide you everything you need is big enough to take everything you have!

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    Quote Originally Posted by emmett View Post
    Your position is well documented. It avoids however the question you were initially asked. I am against homosexuality just as much as you are but it does not stop me from recognizing the advantages of a Libertarian platform and how it can influence my other thinking and contribution.

    Homosexuality is not going to go away Crin. It is what it is. Frankly a Libertarian american would not stop communities from voting it to be illegal. Think about that also.

    Don't want to taouch that rape / pregnancy issue do you? Don't blame you. It is a toughy. can't be illegal though. That is my argument.

    So far Crin I am sorry however I don;t feel your argument. I know what your positions are from economic standpoint, taxes, government intrusions and liberty. YOU my friend are a Libertarian. Now where do I mail this application? LOL.

    War on Drugs? This is a category that also prevents many Republicans from subscribing to a Libertarian agenda. What's you position?
    If abortion were illegal you wouldn't be locking up kids as you described previously. You would be eliminating all the doctors that perform abortions ability to do so openly. Yes there would still be some who did it secretly but they would be the ones being prosecuted, not the kids.

    If you want a firm answer with regards to rape then I have to say no abortion there either. If you want an emotional answer then I have to its a tough position to be in. But I don't vote or decide my views based on emotion.

    I'm going to fight against Homosexual marriages and anything else that has to do with them pretending to be normal and natural so they can get to our kids. Their numbers are growing exactly for this reason, people are allowing them to corrupt our children. I'm not going to quit and I do expect to be locked for hate speech someday because of opposing them.

    I think the war on drugs is a waste of tax payer money.

    I am opposed to them keeping records of Americans emails, text messages and phone calls, but I don't have a problem with wiretaps, when they are wiretapping incoming calls from suspected terrorists or terrorist countries.

    I would also quit housing criminals with life sentences and start executing them. If someone does something so heinous that they cannot be released back into society and there are 2 or more witnesses. Then execute them and make space in the jails. The witnesses can be video, DNA, eye witness and finger prints. But there has to be more than a he said, she said.

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    10 4 on the executions.

    You have to tap innocent calls to find guilty ones.

    The War on Drugs is most certainly a waste of money

    You are still confusing Morality's right to govern the personal lives and choices of people.

    California for instance has a Republican governor but the issue of homo marriage does n ot seem to be going away. Political party affiliation isn't going to make a difference in that area. Republicans have held no more key position against Homosexuality than LIbertarians. The differences are just that Libertarians concentrate on issues of liberty. Like I said the right to make bad social choices. legislating social choices is a terrible encroachment on liberty. If the act is illegal fine....immoral, well, that's different. To make this against the law would lend credit to MB's statement on the comment thread that you would be wishine to legislate choices to Americans. Even the forefathers recognized the need to seperate church and state Crin.

    The rape issue is indeed a tough one. Again however your position doesn't allow choice. Also a bit hypocritical to lock up only the doctor. The person who makes the choice to terminate a life is as guilty as the person performing the abortion regardless of the situation.

    NONE of these issues restricts me from considering myself a Libertarian. I would wish (in a perfect world) that in each of these situations, people would make the right choices. I would feel howevewr that if they were law to force people to make them that it would be closer to Socialism than we presently live in now.
    If you continue to think the way you have always thought, you will continue to get what you have always got!

    A government big enough to provide you everything you need is big enough to take everything you have!

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    Quote Originally Posted by emmett View Post

    You are still confusing Morality's right to govern the personal lives and choices of people.

    California for instance has a Republican governor but the issue of homo marriage does n ot seem to be going away. Political party affiliation isn't going to make a difference in that area. Republicans have held no more key position against Homosexuality than LIbertarians. The differences are just that Libertarians concentrate on issues of liberty. Like I said the right to make bad social choices. legislating social choices is a terrible encroachment on liberty. If the act is illegal fine....immoral, well, that's different. To make this against the law would lend credit to MB's statement on the comment thread that you would be wishine to legislate choices to Americans. Even the forefathers recognized the need to seperate church and state Crin.

    The rape issue is indeed a tough one. Again however your position doesn't allow choice. Also a bit hypocritical to lock up only the doctor. The person who makes the choice to terminate a life is as guilty as the person performing the abortion regardless of the situation.

    NONE of these issues restricts me from considering myself a Libertarian. I would wish (in a perfect world) that in each of these situations, people would make the right choices. I would feel howevewr that if they were law to force people to make them that it would be closer to Socialism than we presently live in now.
    Well my friend, I'm back from vacation and ready to continue with our one on one. I want to remind everyone that I hold this man in highest regard and nothing in this discussion is going to take from that.

    You are still confusing Morality's right to govern the personal lives and choices of people.

    California for instance has a Republican governor but the issue of homo marriage does n ot seem to be going away. Political party affiliation isn't going to make a difference in that area. Republicans have held no more key position against Homosexuality than LIbertarians. The differences are just that Libertarians concentrate on issues of liberty. Like I said the right to make bad social choices. legislating social choices is a terrible encroachment on liberty. If the act is illegal fine....immoral, well, that's different. To make this against the law would lend credit to MB's statement on the comment thread that you would be wishine to legislate choices to Americans. Even the forefathers recognized the need to seperate church and state Crin.
    California has a Liberal RINO for governor. He was able to suck in the stupid people who paid no attention to what he was saying and just voted for his celebrity status and the, “R” after his name. I personally wanted Grey Davis to stay in for a few more years and shove the Liberal crap down everyone’s throats from an actual admitted liberal. Maybe we could have made a real change to the right had that happened. I never voted for California’s current governor and I wont.

    Our Founding Fathers were opposed to a, “church state” not keeping religious views and morality out of government. Our country was founded on Christian values. If you remove Christian values from our governing then you would have complete lawlessness and would have to throw out our founding documents.

    Here are a few examples.

    Andrew Jackson
    “The Bible is the rock on which our republic rests”

    John Adams credited pastors for Americas independence: Mayhew, Cooper, Whitefield, and Chauncy to name a few.

    The very first session of congress is reported to have spent 3 hours in prayer prior to commencing with any business. It is also reported that even the old Quakers were crying when they were done. Then they had a Bible study. After which John Adams told Abigail that she should read Psalm 35, read it to your friends and read it your father.

    Then they called for a day of fasting and prayer. John Adams said “millions will be upon their knees at once before their creator, imploring His forgiveness and blessings: His smiles on American councils and arms.

    George Washington said with regards to all the battles that America was winning that
    “The hand of Providence has been so conspicuous in all this that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations”

    Congress also printed the first English language Bible in the U.S.A. 11 months after winning at Yorktown for use in our public schools and said it would be a neat addition to our public schools.

    The first public school law ever passed in America (1647 Connecticut and Massachusetts) was, “the old deluder satan act” to make sure The Bible was read in public schools.

    In the treaty between the USA and Britain it was either signed or titled (I forget which), “In the Name of the Most Holy and undivided Trinity”. Sounds very Biblical to me.

    John Adams also said
    “The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the…. General principles of Christianity.

    29 of the signers of the Declaration of Independence had seminary degrees.

    So yes indeed America was founded on morality. I will be spending the next year studying about the founding of America and how it was founded as a Christian nation by Christians.


    The rape issue is indeed a tough one. Again however your position doesn't allow choice. Also a bit hypocritical to lock up only the doctor. The person who makes the choice to terminate a life is as guilty as the person performing the abortion regardless of the situation.
    Agreed, but if you take away the doctors and make it illegal, abortions will significantly decrease. I have no problem with prosecuting those who get abortions either if it comes to that. I’m just saying that if we cut off the funding and the source it will significantly reduce the butchery that is currently going on. Then theres the argument that there will be back alley abortions. Sin has consequences.

    NONE of these issues restricts me from considering myself a Libertarian. I would wish (in a perfect world) that in each of these situations, people would make the right choices. I would feel howevewr that if they were law to force people to make them that it would be closer to Socialism than we presently live in now
    My friend there is no greater liberty than liberty in Christ

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    Quote Originally Posted by crin63 View Post
    Well my friend, I'm back from vacation and ready to continue with our one on one. I want to remind everyone that I hold this man in highest regard and nothing in this discussion is going to take from that.



    California has a Liberal RINO for governor. He was able to suck in the stupid people who paid no attention to what he was saying and just voted for his celebrity status and the, “R” after his name. I personally wanted Grey Davis to stay in for a few more years and shove the Liberal crap down everyone’s throats from an actual admitted liberal. Maybe we could have made a real change to the right had that happened. I never voted for California’s current governor and I wont.

    Our Founding Fathers were opposed to a, “church state” not keeping religious views and morality out of government. Our country was founded on Christian values. If you remove Christian values from our governing then you would have complete lawlessness and would have to throw out our founding documents.

    Here are a few examples.

    Andrew Jackson
    “The Bible is the rock on which our republic rests”

    John Adams credited pastors for Americas independence: Mayhew, Cooper, Whitefield, and Chauncy to name a few.

    The very first session of congress is reported to have spent 3 hours in prayer prior to commencing with any business. It is also reported that even the old Quakers were crying when they were done. Then they had a Bible study. After which John Adams told Abigail that she should read Psalm 35, read it to your friends and read it your father.

    Then they called for a day of fasting and prayer. John Adams said “millions will be upon their knees at once before their creator, imploring His forgiveness and blessings: His smiles on American councils and arms.

    George Washington said with regards to all the battles that America was winning that
    “The hand of Providence has been so conspicuous in all this that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations”

    Congress also printed the first English language Bible in the U.S.A. 11 months after winning at Yorktown for use in our public schools and said it would be a neat addition to our public schools.

    The first public school law ever passed in America (1647 Connecticut and Massachusetts) was, “the old deluder satan act” to make sure The Bible was read in public schools.

    In the treaty between the USA and Britain it was either signed or titled (I forget which), “In the Name of the Most Holy and undivided Trinity”. Sounds very Biblical to me.

    John Adams also said
    “The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the…. General principles of Christianity.

    29 of the signers of the Declaration of Independence had seminary degrees.

    So yes indeed America was founded on morality. I will be spending the next year studying about the founding of America and how it was founded as a Christian nation by Christians.




    Agreed, but if you take away the doctors and make it illegal, abortions will significantly decrease. I have no problem with prosecuting those who get abortions either if it comes to that. I’m just saying that if we cut off the funding and the source it will significantly reduce the butchery that is currently going on. Then theres the argument that there will be back alley abortions. Sin has consequences.



    My friend there is no greater liberty than liberty in Christ

    I think you are right about 1647 being the year of the "Old Deluder Satan Act". I think that was right around the time women in Mass were being burned at the steak in the name of God my friend. Come to think of it, millions have been executed for not believing the right thing or saying the right thing about God. Government orchestrated these acts of horror in God;s name because they were able. Government needs to stay away from God completely. Families and churches should teach their children about God, not public schools

    Religion influx into government has NEVER been a constructive thing in free nations. People can always choose their worship practices without government shoving it down their throats. Ah-ha....weren't ready for that out of me were you? I absolutely detest the idea of religion being taught in public schools as a mandate.


    In my opinion however the issue is not about whether God and Government should be infused. Personally I think more than government needs God. I would hope that every moment's conscious of any man is steered by the All Mighty. The issue is about converting you to the Libertarian Party and I fully intend to do that. The issue of God and Government isn;t an issue in that regard. A good Libertarian government would certainly need to be full of believers in God as would any government comprised of people with conscious. You are allowing this issue to define too much of your political agenda in my opinion.

    God encourages us to give to the less fortunate. He does not as far as I can tell use any of the writers in the Bible to encourage government of peoples to "take" from anyone using the disguise of government for the common good. So being careful not to assume too much here I would think God would be fine with a Libertarian administration in America. I know this because Libertarians give more money and time oer capita than any other group of Americans. Link you say? Well.....Libertarians do give but they don;t ask for recognition Crin. Much in the same way they don;t stand up and pound their chest about their convictions to free market enterprise, liberty and persoanl rights to be free Americans, they don't have to be spotlighters. Libertarians are a unit comprised of like minded people who want a better form of government that is much much smaller and does the simple business of the people Federally and allows states to decide how they live in regard to community and regional area. In a Libertarian America you might be able to locate a state that decided prayer and bible reading did belong in school. The Federal Government would not have the right to restrict that because that is what the people of that area, community, county or state wanted. THAT is Libertarian Crin.

    Having said that it could be possible that a state could make abortion illegal. I can tell you right now that if it were allowed, the state of Oklahama would outlaw abortion right now! What is stopping them? Roe vs. Wade and the FEDERAL government. Having a system of government so intrusive as to think that everyone is the same makes us dependent on a Federal Government. A Libertarian form of government would also allow for the voting of legislation by the citizenry. Imagine if the Health care issue we are dealing with now was put to National Vote. Currently it would fail 50% to 43%. That is the latest Rasmussen poll results on that issue.

    Just imagine if a US Supreme Court Justice was nominated that was a true Libertarian. Imagine that my friend!!!! A voice of real reason in a judges cloak. I get excited thinking about it. What if all 9 judges were Libertarians. We'd live in a different world my friend. What if everyone was Libertarian?

    You have introduced arguments that include the fact that you cannot come to peace with Abortion being legal. You say someone that recieves one shopuld be prosecuted. OK. Guess what......it's legal now. Most Republicans support Abortion now. They talk a tough game but when it comes down to cases they fold. They wiffle waffle more than they do anything else. They know they can say one thing, that it is wrong, but how many introduce legislation each day that would change the law.

    To have true faith one must believe God to be the final authority on everything. I sometimes wonder what goes through a doctor's mind right before he sticks that instrument of evil into a young lady and kills the fetus embedded in her womb. I totally trust however that even though I may not have the ability to do anything about it...God does and will. No matter what our laws say....his say it is wrong! No form of government we have will change that. That doctor and that lady will have to go to court one day in the "real Supreme court".

    Lastly.....a Libertarian Government would allow allot of personal choice. Some of those choices I would not agree with just like the choices I do not agree with today. Government cannot make these choices one way or another. God even allows us a choice of whether we walk with him or not. The ultimate choice. He does not force us but rather offers us the choice. Why should our government be any different? The opportunity to choose in all that we do and let God be the judge.

    Continuing to vote for a Party that has allowed the country to become this screwed up with their negligence is foolish sir. The Republican Party is as crooked as the Democrats. It is about power. A Republican will vote for a special interest so quick it will make your head swim. If you want to look at it from a prospective of how they have represented Christians, well.....I don't think I have to say anything else about that.


    Remember....there are other issues. Eminant Domain, Search and Seizure, Taxes, etc,...Republicans AND Democrats have allowed these issues to result in intrusiveness and liberty restricting. Libertarians will not support the crap included in these issues. I feel better to be fighting for liberty from my angle today than I ever did. As I have said, I do not support Abortion but that does not stop me from fightiong it as a Libertarian. So many, yourself included believe that being a Libertarian means that I condone it. I DO NOT! I know many that do not! But as a libertarian I believe that War should be fought in church and by Christians. Who is better qualified? Politicians? Come on! Social Programs instituted by churches are a better weapon than government in stopping these atrosities. Families are a better weapon. Free families, liberty loving families who are strong, free and economically powerful and socially able.
    If you continue to think the way you have always thought, you will continue to get what you have always got!

    A government big enough to provide you everything you need is big enough to take everything you have!

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    Quote Originally Posted by emmett View Post
    I think you are right about 1647 being the year of the "Old Deluder Satan Act". I think that was right around the time women in Mass were being burned at the steak in the name of God my friend. Come to think of it, millions have been executed for not believing the right thing or saying the right thing about God. Government orchestrated these acts of horror in God;s name because they were able. Government needs to stay away from God completely. Families and churches should teach their children about God, not public schools

    Religion influx into government has NEVER been a constructive thing in free nations. People can always choose their worship practices without government shoving it down their throats. Ah-ha....weren't ready for that out of me were you? I absolutely detest the idea of religion being taught in public schools as a mandate.


    In my opinion however the issue is not about whether God and Government should be infused. Personally I think more than government needs God. I would hope that every moment's conscious of any man is steered by the All Mighty. The issue is about converting you to the Libertarian Party and I fully intend to do that. The issue of God and Government isn;t an issue in that regard. A good Libertarian government would certainly need to be full of believers in God as would any government comprised of people with conscious. You are allowing this issue to define too much of your political agenda in my opinion.

    God encourages us to give to the less fortunate. He does not as far as I can tell use any of the writers in the Bible to encourage government of peoples to "take" from anyone using the disguise of government for the common good. So being careful not to assume too much here I would think God would be fine with a Libertarian administration in America. I know this because Libertarians give more money and time oer capita than any other group of Americans. Link you say? Well.....Libertarians do give but they don;t ask for recognition Crin. Much in the same way they don;t stand up and pound their chest about their convictions to free market enterprise, liberty and persoanl rights to be free Americans, they don't have to be spotlighters. Libertarians are a unit comprised of like minded people who want a better form of government that is much much smaller and does the simple business of the people Federally and allows states to decide how they live in regard to community and regional area. In a Libertarian America you might be able to locate a state that decided prayer and bible reading did belong in school. The Federal Government would not have the right to restrict that because that is what the people of that area, community, county or state wanted. THAT is Libertarian Crin.

    Having said that it could be possible that a state could make abortion illegal. I can tell you right now that if it were allowed, the state of Oklahama would outlaw abortion right now! What is stopping them? Roe vs. Wade and the FEDERAL government. Having a system of government so intrusive as to think that everyone is the same makes us dependent on a Federal Government. A Libertarian form of government would also allow for the voting of legislation by the citizenry. Imagine if the Health care issue we are dealing with now was put to National Vote. Currently it would fail 50% to 43%. That is the latest Rasmussen poll results on that issue.

    Just imagine if a US Supreme Court Justice was nominated that was a true Libertarian. Imagine that my friend!!!! A voice of real reason in a judges cloak. I get excited thinking about it. What if all 9 judges were Libertarians. We'd live in a different world my friend. What if everyone was Libertarian?

    You have introduced arguments that include the fact that you cannot come to peace with Abortion being legal. You say someone that recieves one shopuld be prosecuted. OK. Guess what......it's legal now. Most Republicans support Abortion now. They talk a tough game but when it comes down to cases they fold. They wiffle waffle more than they do anything else. They know they can say one thing, that it is wrong, but how many introduce legislation each day that would change the law.

    To have true faith one must believe God to be the final authority on everything. I sometimes wonder what goes through a doctor's mind right before he sticks that instrument of evil into a young lady and kills the fetus embedded in her womb. I totally trust however that even though I may not have the ability to do anything about it...God does and will. No matter what our laws say....his say it is wrong! No form of government we have will change that. That doctor and that lady will have to go to court one day in the "real Supreme court".

    Lastly.....a Libertarian Government would allow allot of personal choice. Some of those choices I would not agree with just like the choices I do not agree with today. Government cannot make these choices one way or another. God even allows us a choice of whether we walk with him or not. The ultimate choice. He does not force us but rather offers us the choice. Why should our government be any different? The opportunity to choose in all that we do and let God be the judge.

    Continuing to vote for a Party that has allowed the country to become this screwed up with their negligence is foolish sir. The Republican Party is as crooked as the Democrats. It is about power. A Republican will vote for a special interest so quick it will make your head swim. If you want to look at it from a prospective of how they have represented Christians, well.....I don't think I have to say anything else about that.


    Remember....there are other issues. Eminant Domain, Search and Seizure, Taxes, etc,...Republicans AND Democrats have allowed these issues to result in intrusiveness and liberty restricting. Libertarians will not support the crap included in these issues. I feel better to be fighting for liberty from my angle today than I ever did. As I have said, I do not support Abortion but that does not stop me from fightiong it as a Libertarian. So many, yourself included believe that being a Libertarian means that I condone it. I DO NOT! I know many that do not! But as a libertarian I believe that War should be fought in church and by Christians. Who is better qualified? Politicians? Come on! Social Programs instituted by churches are a better weapon than government in stopping these atrosities. Families are a better weapon. Free families, liberty loving families who are strong, free and economically powerful and socially able.
    I am more Libertarian than Republican, you already know that. However I cannot and will not waver on those 2 issues. For me to waver on those would be for me to abandon my convictions and that won't happen. If it ever comes to it, I hope that I will have the strength to give up my life rather than give up my convictions and beliefs.

    I understand your position in having no government involvement in the abortion issue. However in your position you assign no rights to the unborn baby in the womb of the mother. You allow it to become nothing more than property which can either be executed without cause or granted life if the mother sees fit to do so. It has to be one way or the other, either the baby has rights or it does not. If it has rights then it has to be given the right to live. If it does not have rights then you have relegated it to the status of slave or property. Is the baby a person or not? Does it have rights or not?

    I guess you disagree with our Founding Fathers then. They wanted The Bible to be read in school because it is the first founding document of this country. The Bible is the source for which we learn the value of man, how men should treat one another and how we should govern.

    Apparently you also disagree with the first 150+ years of our country when we had prayer in our schools.

    If you boil it down to the essence of your argument, then our Founding Fathers were wrong, they did not know what they were doing and we have been wrong as a country from conception until The Bible and prayer were removed from our schools.

    I'm not interested in America being a theocracy. Yes some bad things have happened in the name of God by misguided or non-Christians. Not much of that has happened here though, not the millions you mentioned.

    By the way religion is taught in our schools today. Secular Humanism is being taught. When were we better off as a country? When The Bible was read in our schools and we prayed in our schools or now? When was the greatest decline in our country? The last 50 or so years?

    I clearly understand your arguments about the difference between Republicans and Libertarians. I also agree with much of what you say about the differences. However like I said before I will not waver on the 2 primary issues we have discussed. So long as Republicans remain pro-life and pro-traditional marriage I will not change. If another party comes along that I align with better I will be gone in a heart beat. I almost went Constitution Party until I researched them further. I will only align myself with a party that is pro-life, that does mean making stand one way or another and anti gay-agenda. I realize that homosexuals are going to win this fight at some point and then this will become a moot issue, but until that happens I have to continue fighting against it.

    If I live to eat my words you will be the first to know and the first person I beg forgiveness of. I will then also ask to be put down because I will have abandon my principles and convictions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crin63 View Post
    I am more Libertarian than Republican, you already know that. However I cannot and will not waver on those 2 issues. For me to waver on those would be for me to abandon my convictions and that won't happen. If it ever comes to it, I hope that I will have the strength to give up my life rather than give up my convictions and beliefs.

    I understand your position in having no government involvement in the abortion issue. However in your position you assign no rights to the unborn baby in the womb of the mother. You allow it to become nothing more than property which can either be executed without cause or granted life if the mother sees fit to do so. It has to be one way or the other, either the baby has rights or it does not. If it has rights then it has to be given the right to live. If it does not have rights then you have relegated it to the status of slave or property. Is the baby a person or not? Does it have rights or not?

    I guess you disagree with our Founding Fathers then. They wanted The Bible to be read in school because it is the first founding document of this country. The Bible is the source for which we learn the value of man, how men should treat one another and how we should govern.

    Apparently you also disagree with the first 150+ years of our country when we had prayer in our schools.

    If you boil it down to the essence of your argument, then our Founding Fathers were wrong, they did not know what they were doing and we have been wrong as a country from conception until The Bible and prayer were removed from our schools.

    I'm not interested in America being a theocracy. Yes some bad things have happened in the name of God by misguided or non-Christians. Not much of that has happened here though, not the millions you mentioned.

    By the way religion is taught in our schools today. Secular Humanism is being taught. When were we better off as a country? When The Bible was read in our schools and we prayed in our schools or now? When was the greatest decline in our country? The last 50 or so years?

    I clearly understand your arguments about the difference between Republicans and Libertarians. I also agree with much of what you say about the differences. However like I said before I will not waver on the 2 primary issues we have discussed. So long as Republicans remain pro-life and pro-traditional marriage I will not change. If another party comes along that I align with better I will be gone in a heart beat. I almost went Constitution Party until I researched them further. I will only align myself with a party that is pro-life, that does mean making stand one way or another and anti gay-agenda. I realize that homosexuals are going to win this fight at some point and then this will become a moot issue, but until that happens I have to continue fighting against it.

    If I live to eat my words you will be the first to know and the first person I beg forgiveness of. I will then also ask to be put down because I will have abandon my principles and convictions.
    OK...let us change the context for a minute. I am an anti-abortion Libertarian. Let me say that again. Anti-Abortion Libertarian. I believe life starts at conception and it is murder to terminate that life at any time. I struggle with the rape issue and I wish I had the answer to that but I don't. I do not feel I have the right to insist a woman has a child that is the product of rape or incest. I am just not qualified as is no man in my opinion. I do feel God is and I would be willing to leave that to him. As for making laws as to the requirements, again, that is why I would never run for public office. My conscience would bother me to think I had lent to the incarceration of a woman who had been raped and decided to terminate the pregnancy.

    Convictions are good. Holding true to them is something we all need to do a little more of. My problem with the Republican Party is based in that exact subject. Republicans were supposed to be for small government, something we have all seen is no longer true. They were supposed to be the party that protected privacy, which they no longer do, property, which they no longer do and many other issues showed me that Republicans are nothing more than sleezy politicians like democrats. They chase votes and have thrown their convictions right into the trash can along with their dignity and conviction to serve the people via the US Constitution.

    I believe that most of our argument here lies along the lines of Church and State really. It was established early on that it was imperative that Church and State be seperate. If not, we would be living in a society much like that we had abandoned. My reference to people having been murdered in the name of God was merely stated to show how many societies had condemned people to death for issues that questioned their faith in God. It's true you know. I didn;t necessarily mean just here in the US, although thousands were put to death back prior to our nations forming. You mentioned Mass so I mentioned the witch hunts. Sorry but I trumped you on that one!

    Furthermore.....if I knew that people like you personally were in charge of government, convicted to running the country from a prospective that the Bible would be the law of the land I would feel fine if I was the same religion as you but what if I was not. I mean personally I think what a wonderful society any land would be if it followed the laws of the Bible. People would not steal, there would be no need for self defense so guns could be outlawed huh? No one would kill so we could eliminate folks' rights to all self defense methods and so forth. There would bo no adultery so no need for divorce courts, no greed, no nothing. What a wonderful world that would be my friend. An imaginary one however but it would be wonderful. The problem is that too much involvement of Church in State matters would lead to every time Church has been the State of a society, there would be useless murder of those who did not follow the doctrine. Simple theft would be considered an act against God and therefore be considered a violation of him and so forth. It has happened enough times throughout history to clearly demonstrate that I am absolutely correct and you know it. people would misuse the "power" that comes with thinking they, because they supposedly believe in God, which people like that do not, have!

    Church and State must remain seperated. I say let people choose collectively their way of government socially and let their conscience be directed by their convictions to God or yes, even if they do not believe, their conscience. Not that I think their conscience can be one of propeity if it isn;t based in faith but this is America and that document we continue to discuss, guarentees as well that a citizen does not have to believe in God to live here and have the same rights as everyone else. It is what seperates us from everyone else. It is called liberty. Real Liberty assures us absolute freedom to choose to live our lives the way we want so long os we do not infringe on another's right to do the same. That sir is what America is all about. Absolute Freedom. Something that is being stolen from us each and every day as we live amongst it.

    We are currently involved in one of the best debates I have ever seen here on this board or any other. A very fine line seperates two opinions of two people who I think are very convicted to their beliefs. Let us allow ourselves to use our imaginations for a minute to ponder what it would be like to think we were on the Senate floor conducting this argument over whether these issues that seperate us would be law or not. Let's see. Let us further imagine that we had won all our other battles together for all the other issues by which we agree. Liberty in way of privacy, we agree on that. We both agree that no one should ever have the right to come in our home uninvited. Well...I assume we do from our previous conversations, I also assume we agree on the 2nd, we believe in the right to self defense of ourselves and our family. We believe that a person should have the right to choose how they live as long as they do not infringe on another's rights (Abortion and Homosexuality aside). We both do not believe a person's property should be taken for the use of the state or private institution. We both believe government should be only the size necessary to orchestrate the most basic of business, infrastructure care, roadways and the like. We both agree on an awful lot my friend. Where we seem to differ is in whether the Churches law should govern our personal choices and rather people should be prosecuted for not living in accordance with God's law. As a matter of fact, our only disagreement of how to run government seems to be based in that. Which brings me back to my original assertion that you do not believe in the seperation of church and State and i would direct you that document we continue to reference and the core beliefs of our forefathers. America was designed in the context of believing in the complete seperation of church and State.

    My assertion of this does not mean that I like our forefathers do not believe God has no place in our lives. To believe in Seperation does not suggest that at all. america has to guarentee individual liberty for ALL citizens, not just those who believe in God. Even atheists are assured the same rights as the rest of us. It has to be that way to assure that our beliefs as a nation are uniform. As believers we have to have the ultimate faith that God will handle it from there and that the ultimate choice he allows them to change by embracing the Lord Jesus Christ's doctrine will change their life. My belief is that if it is good enough for him, it is good enough for me. If we use our government to force people to live a certain way and make their choices for them, well Crin, IMHO, we are overstepping our bounds and operating above our pay grade.
    If you continue to think the way you have always thought, you will continue to get what you have always got!

    A government big enough to provide you everything you need is big enough to take everything you have!

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    While you are home with your wife this morning caring for your wife whom we wish to be well soon, please examine this;


    LUKE 20 thru 26.

    Read that and tell me your opinion on the seperation of church and state. Of course this is not meant to compliment my argument. I just felt like a breif "time out" this Sunday morning might be in order to give a couple of battle hardened warrior debators a chance to refresh themselves in some real words of wit might be in order. This way we might think about what we say in this regard while arguing this matter further.

    Pay especially close attention to Jesus' words in Luke 25; Render therefore the things unto Ceasar that are Ceasar's, and to God the things that are God's.

    Again, a Blessed Sunday to you and yours.
    If you continue to think the way you have always thought, you will continue to get what you have always got!

    A government big enough to provide you everything you need is big enough to take everything you have!

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    Quote Originally Posted by emmett View Post
    While you are home with your wife this morning caring for your wife whom we wish to be well soon, please examine this;


    LUKE 20 thru 26.

    Read that and tell me your opinion on the seperation of church and state. Of course this is not meant to compliment my argument. I just felt like a breif "time out" this Sunday morning might be in order to give a couple of battle hardened warrior debators a chance to refresh themselves in some real words of wit might be in order. This way we might think about what we say in this regard while arguing this matter further.

    Pay especially close attention to Jesus' words in Luke 25; Render therefore the things unto Ceasar that are Ceasar's, and to God the things that are God's.

    Again, a Blessed Sunday to you and yours.
    Thank you my friend, my apologies for not getting back to this its been a rough week. My wife finally snapped back Wednesday and seems to be doing quite well now. I felt obligated to jump into another topic a little bit.

    Any time we can talk about God and his word its a good day. Those scriptures were talking about taxes as a practical application, however I think they also apply to tithes and offerings. If its proper to give Caesar (government) his due then it is obviously more proper to give God his due which is tithes and offerings above the tithe.

    I know its a touchy subject with many people because they have seen what fake preachers/religions have done and they want any excuse to pocket the cash God has declared as His (10% plus offerings). However God declared that those who hold back their tithes and offerings are robbing Him.

    Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
    Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
    Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.


    There are other scriptures that would seem to dictate that we abide by the laws of government, however, no Christian should rightly abide by a law that causes them to sin. Thats where civil disobedience would come into play.

    1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
    1Pe 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
    1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
    1Pe 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
    1Pe 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
    1Pe 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
    1Pe 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
    1Pe 2:20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
    1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

    I have wrestled with whether or not our Founding Fathers were Biblically correct in the founding of our country. Should they have fought against England, I don't know. Am I glad they did, yes. This is a tough one for me.

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