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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by emmett View Post
    Me too Crin, and it actually does lend something to our debate.....AND....as much as I am pleased to say....supports my side sir. Not that I think you wrong! It simply supports of of the very difficult point I was trying to make in some of the first posts, which I failed on at times to articulate properly which left you with what could have been a miscommunication on my behalf.

    Example: I am certain that not all of those over 1 million citizens that congregated to demonstrate this past weekend were in agreement about every single thing on each's agenda. I'm sure many of them had your opinion of a strong religious based society of law, while mine were more liberal in that particular sense and while believers, think it necessary for each to choose his own way so long as it does not immediately infringe on another's liberty. The thing they all had in common was obvious and together they made quite an impression on both you, as you admit you feel better than you have in decades, and me, as I do as well. Hmmmm!

    Sort of goes back to the point I made about finding common denominators first! Such as Liberty! Freedom! Choice! Rights! Smaller Government. These are Libertarian core beliefs. I'm sure I need not explain that to you as I have never meant to say you did not understand that. My point has always been to accuse you of being slightly narrow on the religious end and that I felt it was a violation of one's liberty to allow people to decide for others how they should live. That creates BIGGER government and goes against everything liberty stands for. Liberty is not elastic Crin, you can't have Liberty in a country where any sect, Christian or otherwise, has the ability to tell others how to live.

    This does meran to suggest that I do not think it is right. I simply refuse to compromise on a belief that Liberty comes first. Absolute Liberty....not a watered down version but real true liberty.

    Again...I repeat that in a perfect society there would be no homosexuality or abortions as far as I am concerned.

    The folks we saw over the weekend had one thing in common....what was it?

    That is my point! AND......they made theirs together while I am sure there differences among them of some regard.
    My point or argument as it may be is more of moral stand than actually a religious stand. When I read the founding fathers, there is absolutely no doubt that they intended a moral society for us to live in. As I read their writings I find that they were quite convinced that the only way for our country to survive and our liberties to be preserved was through a moral society. Without a particular guide for morality you end up with what we have now in our society and the losses of liberty that we are seeing from our overreaching, heavy-handed government. Morality cannot be subjective, there has to be a guideline and for our founding fathers that guideline was the Bible.

    All I actually want is for our country to be restored to the vision of our founding fathers.

    It seems as though your view of liberty is a lawless, immoral society where every man does what is right in his own eyes. Because that is what you will end up with if every man does what is right in his own eyes. Now don't get me wrong, I understand that you oppose the immoralities of our previous conversation, but you would allow them. Where do you draw the line? I would never suggest that we go and check peoples beds to see what they are doing, but it also cant be considered the norm and given free run.

    Absolute and unfettered liberty will only result in tyranny because the biggest and baddest with the most people and weapons will rise up and dominate. Its the unchecked nature of man to do so.

    My friend, liberty only works in a moral society.
    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
    Samuel Adams


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  2. #32
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    It seems as though your view of liberty is a lawless, immoral society where every man does what is right in his own eyes. Because that is what you will end up with if every man does what is right in his own eyes. Now don't get me wrong, I understand that you oppose the immoralities of our previous conversation, but you would allow them. Where do you draw the line? I would never suggest that we go and check peoples beds to see what they are doing, but it also cant be considered the norm and given free run.

    You have hit on my point exactly, WHO draws the line for the standards by which folks live their personal lives? Government or eack individual citizen.

    You requesting a pipe dream my friend. History has taught us also that when government is empowered with ANY ability to oversee our lives, we end up with what we have. In my opinion, we either have to have liberty or not. By allowing government to dictate ANY portion of our liberty, we enable them to dictate it all. Read my footer Crin and say it out loud.

    I'd love to live in the land you envision and be a productive responsible member of it. I am a realist however and know that to have as close a version of that land as possible there will be our obligation to allow people the ability to make their own decisions. Many will make the wrong ones. Liberty allows people to choose for themselves. The only way to ensure the land you speak of is a Religious based "police state". That is not liberty.

    I think the difference here, if there is a difference, since basically we want the same thing, is that I am a wee bit more of a realist than you. Since you admit we cannot live in a land that "checks beds" every evening, well, Crin........what did you just say? We can't! We simply just can't do those things...in any circumstance, so why bother to make it law if it isn;t verifyable? That is all I am saying.

    Let us for a moment examine Illegal Imigration. It is against the law. We have both teamed up many times in those threads to repeatedly say, "Enforce the law." Yet it isn't enforced. Writing laws a country does not enforce creates an elasticity in those standards that sends a message of non-compliance to the citizenry.

    Finally...liberty is about choice. Absolute liberty is free and complete choice. To restrict that in any way starts the snowball. I don't fool myself into believing there would be no immorality in a Libertarian society Crin but I know laws don;t make us civil. Good choices make us that way.

    Have a great day buddy.
    If you continue to think the way you have always thought, you will continue to get what you have always got!

    A government big enough to provide you everything you need is big enough to take everything you have!

  3. #33
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    How about if we both agree to vote for Ron Paul next time. That way I am voting Republican and you are voting Libertarian. The perfect common Denominator. We'll call it a tie.
    If you continue to think the way you have always thought, you will continue to get what you have always got!

    A government big enough to provide you everything you need is big enough to take everything you have!

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by emmett View Post
    How about if we both agree to vote for Ron Paul next time. That way I am voting Republican and you are voting Libertarian. The perfect common Denominator. We'll call it a tie.
    I'm willing to call it a tie. However I'm actually hoping for a Palin/Beck, Beck/Nugent, Palin/Nugent ticket or something like that.

    Ron Paul's son is running for senate I believe. That should be interesting.
    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
    Samuel Adams


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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by crin63 View Post
    I'm willing to call it a tie. However I'm actually hoping for a Palin/Beck, Beck/Nugent, Palin/Nugent ticket or something like that.

    Ron Paul's son is running for senate I believe. That should be interesting.
    You're not a big Ron Paul guy are you? I find that strange as he out of all the right side pollys in my opinion comes closer to your "political" side opinion. I would think you a Chuck Baldwin fan too. Am I right?
    If you continue to think the way you have always thought, you will continue to get what you have always got!

    A government big enough to provide you everything you need is big enough to take everything you have!

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by emmett View Post
    You're not a big Ron Paul guy are you? I find that strange as he out of all the right side pollys in my opinion comes closer to your "political" side opinion. I would think you a Chuck Baldwin fan too. Am I right?
    Its not Ron Pauls politics that keep me from voting for him necessarily. He is unelectable as president. If he was a better communicator and didn't come off as weird, he would gain more ground nationally. I'm not talking about how the media portray him or how he is shunned. He just acts kinda weird and that makes him unelectable as president in my opinion.

    Chuck Baldwin belongs to what was and is an obscure party that has no chance at all unless they grow and are actually in every state. Had the CP run Judge Roy Moore as was the initial plan they would gotten considerable attention, traction and my vote.
    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
    Samuel Adams


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  7. #37
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    I am a small government, low tax, powerful regulatory civil libertarian. I refuse to associate myself with the jerks that think the jerks that constantly defy responsible environmental and labor concerns. Fuck 'em.



    Psychoblues

  8. #38
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    I stopped by just in case Emmett ever stops by here to let him know that I will be voting for Ron Paul in the primaries. Emmett

    I'm done with Establishment Republicans.
    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
    Samuel Adams


    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by crin63 View Post
    I stopped by just in case Emmett ever stops by here to let him know that I will be voting for Ron Paul in the primaries. Emmett

    I'm done with Establishment Republicans.

    Pardon me, but I did a quick read thru on this last page and I was intrigued by the conversation, the length of time in between posts by all, and how the topic is picked back up so easily after all that time. Your last post was especially interesting.

    I think you should stick with where you were on Mr. Paul because you were right as rain then and nothing has changed in that regard. The man is unelectable, and he does come off like a nut, and I'll tell you something else, I think he's a bigot.

    Anyways, it is a pleasure to meet you. I am in no way attempting to tell you how to vote of course, I actually agree with your earlier assessment, as I mentioned above.

    Unfortunately for all of us, the GOP Establishment is in charge of the annointing powers and they have chosen Romney. "Dem are da breaks", as we say in CHicago. Ah hell, it could be worse ya know. We could be looking at another Bush in the form of ole' Jedidiah. I don't think I could stomach another damn Bush in the WH. Talk about your OneWorlders dude!

    Even WORSE is letting our Kenyan Comrade get re-elected. That must be prevented at ALL costs, and in my view, by any and all possible means.

    Legally speaking of course.......

    Like I said, "pleasure to meet you". And Emmitt if you're out there amigo, as well as the rest of you folks..
    “Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.”

    Winston Churchill

  10. #40
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    I wanted to apologise for posting on this thread. I just now realized that perhaps I shouldn't have, regardless of its stale date. I meant no offense and please remove with no hard feelings on my part Mr.Jimmy.
    “Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.”

    Winston Churchill

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