Libertarian vs. Republican (Emmett vs. Crin)

[emmett]

It would be impossible for me to list all the threads where Crin and I have entered into this conversation. So I won't try however i would think it certainly qualifies us to take up this debate on this thread and start here. I'll ask the first question as I have challenged Crin to this one on one debate. I feel this is an issue that more and more Conservatives should be taking up however not with intention to devide at all but to unite. America continues to move further to the left everyday. I believe we as Conservatives are as much to blame for this as the Liberals we critisize as the culprits. Our positions need "fine tuning" and have become distorted in the sea of confusion created by watching our liberty slip away a little at a time.

For those of you who will read the following posts over the next few months or however long it takes me to convert this gentleman, please take note as to what a "debate" is. If you are looking for namecalling, rhetorical innuendo and hateful behavior, you will no doubt be bored out of your mind and I suugest you make your way back to one of those "other" sites. That will not take place during this discussion. I do however expect it to become quite "heated" at times for I have reached my limit with this gentleman and fully intend to "win" this discussion.

Crin is my friend. He is man of good moral fortitude and conservative values which I respect him for. We have however on many occasions, disagreed about the basic concept of Libertarianism and its value to the political structure of American society. I have called him out so to speak to debate this issue once and for all. We have always agreed to disagree in the past concerning this issue and I realize today that that won't do. I am willing to make the ultimate bet with you Crin. My Libertarian Party card against your Republican one. Sort of like "pink slips" if you may. If I can not convince you to become a card carrying member of the Libertarian Party I will vote Republican in the next election and in each one that follows until the day I can convince you to become a Libertarian. I warn you sir...I have done my homework and stand ready with an arsenol of informative and relevent information which I believe will convince you that I am right and YOU are wrong.

So in parity to the Charlie Daniels classic "The devil came down to Georgia", I am the Libertarian who is already in Georgia and looking for a soul to steal, my first question is this;


Crin, why will you not become a member of the Libertarian party?

[crin63]

It would be impossible for me to list all the threads where Crin and I have entered into this conversation. So I won't try however i would think it certainly qualifies us to take up this debate on this thread and start here. I'll ask the first question as I have challenged Crin to this one on one debate. I feel this is an issue that more and more Conservatives should be taking up however not with intention to devide at all but to unite. America continues to move further to the left everyday. I believe we as Conservatives are as much to blame for this as the Liberals we critisize as the culprits. Our positions need "fine tuning" and have become distorted in the sea of confusion created by watching our liberty slip away a little at a time.

For those of you who will read the following posts over the next few months or however long it takes me to convert this gentleman, please take note as to what a "debate" is. If you are looking for namecalling, rhetorical innuendo and hateful behavior, you will no doubt be bored out of your mind and I suugest you make your way back to one of those "other" sites. That will not take place during this discussion. I do however expect it to become quite "heated" at times for I have reached my limit with this gentleman and fully intend to "win" this discussion.

Crin is my friend. He is man of good moral fortitude and conservative values which I respect him for. We have however on many occasions, disagreed about the basic concept of Libertarianism and its value to the political structure of American society. I have called him out so to speak to debate this issue once and for all. We have always agreed to disagree in the past concerning this issue and I realize today that that won't do. I am willing to make the ultimate bet with you Crin. My Libertarian Party card against your Republican one. Sort of like "pink slips" if you may. If I can not convince you to become a card carrying member of the Libertarian Party I will vote Republican in the next election and in each one that follows until the day I can convince you to become a Libertarian. I warn you sir...I have done my homework and stand ready with an arsenol of informative and relevent information which I believe will convince you that I am right and YOU are wrong.

So in parity to the Charlie Daniels classic "The devil came down to Georgia", I am the Libertarian who is already in Georgia and looking for a soul to steal, my first question is this;


Crin, why will you not become a member of the Libertarian party?

Allow to start off by saying that I voted for Emmett as my favorite DP'er and as the person who makes the best impression on DP in the 2008 year end awards. Emmett is also the person I would most like to sit down over a cup of coffee and just chit chat with all day. I have the utmost respect for Emmett and his opinions. I just disagree with him about a few things and the Libertarian Party.

I'm not saying that it is impossible for me to become a Libertarian, I'm just saying that with their current stands on abortion and homosexual rights I won't.

I'm by no means a hardcore Republican and if I ever found a party that was more aligned with my views and actually had a chance to win, I would jump ship immediately. I almost joined the Constitution party but it didn't even have representation in all states and they were to stupid to vote for a guy who would have brought them national prominence, Judge Roy Moore.

I take exception with Conservatives being defined by what Republicans do. The Republican Party barely represents Conservative views but they still maintain a pro-life position and marriage between a man and woman only. If those things change I will no longer be a Republican. I am far more Libertarian then I am Republican but I cannot in good conscience support any party that is pro-choice or pro gay-marriage.

Clarify something for me Emmett. You keep making Republicans and Conservatives synonymous yet you call yourself a Conservative and slam Republicans. How does that work?

I think I answered your question and I guess we can start here since I'm going to go nap right now,

[emmett]

I see that as key, myself....I think economically and politically there is little difference between Libertarian and Reagan style Republican, but on social issues the Libertarians are too liberal for my tastes....

i may remind you PMP, with all due respect that this is a ONE on ONE debate in the ONE on ONE thread. With a smile I ask you to please not try and assist me in dispatching Crin as I fully intend to do it myself.


Now to answer your question Crin. I so sometimes slam Republicans who claim to be Conservative. I do also categorize them together in most cases because the republican Party is / was founded in Conservative beliefs. I also think the Republican Party of today has allowed itself to "give in" to far too many of the left's political agenda. They do this to try and elastize their agenda and make it more appealing to borderline voters. It seems that everyone seems to want to "adjust" their philosophy by who will vote for them. Many voters compromise their true beliefs just so thye can get as much of their agenda as possible by voting for a more popular party. Such as yourself! You said you would join a party who didn't support Abortion, Gay Rights and ACTUALLY HAD A CHANCE TO WIN!

That is the main part of your stance that I disagree with. So....I'll ask you this;

Should it be against the law to be gay? What should the penalty be? Prison(?) Ah......I got news for you/ There is a bunch of queers in prison. Hords of them. Should we allow them to occupy a prison cell and support them?

How about Abortion? Illegal? Prison? Should we put the 17 year old in prison? How about her mom? Put her there too. Support them.

Please....I'm dying to hear your argument in this regard.


Prison cells are already scarce. Sentences for theives, robbers and rapists are being reduced all the time to allow the turnover rate to accomodate more prisoners. Am I to understand that by making these other activities illegal you are suggesting we should put these people in prison. What crimes should we slack off on next to accomodate a place for them?


What other lifestyle issues should we outlaw? Prison for them too I suppose. Let's see....we could just legislate our way to everyone living nice clean and pure lives then....could we not?


Your turn.

[crin63]

i may remind you PMP, with all due respect that this is a ONE on ONE debate in the ONE on ONE thread. With a smile I ask you to please not try and assist me in dispatching Crin as I fully intend to do it myself.


Now to answer your question Crin. I so sometimes slam Republicans who claim to be Conservative. I do also categorize them together in most cases because the republican Party is / was founded in Conservative beliefs. I also think the Republican Party of today has allowed itself to "give in" to far too many of the left's political agenda. They do this to try and elastize their agenda and make it more appealing to borderline voters. It seems that everyone seems to want to "adjust" their philosophy by who will vote for them. Many voters compromise their true beliefs just so thye can get as much of their agenda as possible by voting for a more popular party. Such as yourself! You said you would join a party who didn't support Abortion, Gay Rights and ACTUALLY HAD A CHANCE TO WIN!

That is the main part of your stance that I disagree with. So....I'll ask you this;

Should it be against the law to be gay? What should the penalty be? Prison(?) Ah......I got news for you/ There is a bunch of queers in prison. Hords of them. Should we allow them to occupy a prison cell and support them?

How about Abortion? Illegal? Prison? Should we put the 17 year old in prison? How about her mom? Put her there too. Support them.

Please....I'm dying to hear your argument in this regard.


Prison cells are already scarce. Sentences for theives, robbers and rapists are being reduced all the time to allow the turnover rate to accomodate more prisoners. Am I to understand that by making these other activities illegal you are suggesting we should put these people in prison. What crimes should we slack off on next to accomodate a place for them?


What other lifestyle issues should we outlaw? Prison for them too I suppose. Let's see....we could just legislate our way to everyone living nice clean and pure lives then....could we not?


Your turn.

I would treat homosexuals just like any other deviant pedophile. They're not asking to be left alone. They're not just average Americans trying to live their lives. They want to have access to my children and your children so they can corrupt them while in the long term try to recruit them and turn them. Thats the only way they can propagate their specie. I grew up around Lesbians and had friends who were gay. I no what they are and what they want.
I was about 10 the first time I ever encountered one, who sat there drooling and staring at me like I was a treat. I can still see his face some 35 years later. I was 15 the next time one decided to befriend me and he waited a year before he made a move. I was 17 when the next 2 approached me. I had one that was a friend when I was about 26 who preyed on a neighbor that was married and gave him AIDS just before he died from it.

They are in my opinion just as bad as any heterosexual pedophile and should be treated the same, even if that means legislating against them. They are not benign, they are a cancer rotting our society and like any cancer they need to be removed as quickly as possible.

With regards to abortion, yes it should be illegal. Except maybe in the case of the mothers life being at stake, when its one life or another or possibly both then obviously a decision has to be made. In the case of rape, that's tough because God has used the children of rape victims in a marvelous way.

What is your idea of absolute freedom? Apparently you think there should be some restrictions but that has never come across in your posts until I mentioned yelling, "Fire" or killing a neighbor. I know you are a man of character and wouldn't do those things but others would if there were not restrictions and consequences to those actions.

I believe that we should have as much liberty as possible without harming or negatively impacting our neighbors.

I'm gonna be running around tomorrow so I don't know if I'll get back to this until the afternoon or evening.

[emmett]

I've run across homosexuals in my life too. I however see them as no more influencial than anyone else whose agenda I disagree with. For instance a theif, a drug user or anyone who may try and influence me (or my children) to do something I know and have taught my children is wrong. I would not allow a homosexual to influence my decision as to how to align myself politically however as that would be adding a notch to their belt so to speak. By saying I would not want their ac tivity outlawed I do not mean to imply that I condone or agree with their behavior. I simply don't care. Government has no right to dictate how a person lives their personal life.

I believe in serious penalties for pedophiles. A position that one does not think government has a right to dictate personal lifestyle choices does not mean they would be any softer on pedophiles than anyone else. I would probably be much tougher than say...our current laws. I am also aware that there are gay people in every party now, including the Republican one.

You see, to me...I am not about to allow myself to be swayed by this bahavior. It will not influence my life, my political choices or anything. That is the part that like you...bothers so many Conservatives. You are allowing yourself to be limited in political thinking because of them. I refuse to enpower them in that way. So...that is the difference in this regard. What they do to each other is their business. Making it against the law will not change their thinking. Molestation, Pedophilia and the like would always remain against the law. Libertarians don't condone this by saying they are not against freedom of choice.

The personal liberty issues surrounding Americans lives are more important to me than my "fear" of homosexuals. I can teach my children right and wrong. I don't need government to do this. It makes the point of homosexuality moot. It just does not matter. Rather it is or is not against the law...it will take place. It isn't against the law now! Rape, Molestation, and being a pedophile is. So what would change? Nothing! It is of the least influencial items on a political prospective. That is my point. There is far too much to be gained by Conservatives to endorse Libertarian philosophy than to be lost by engaging in homophobia.

A rape victim might have a different prospective than you about being forced to have the child. Again...Freedom of choice.....CHOICE......across the board Crin. Choice is the true LIBERTY. The "right" to make the wrong decision on one's own. Not government! THAT is absolute freedom to me. Being able to choose. How could we take a woman who had been raped and put her in prison for making a decision she was placed in a position to make at no desire of her own? How many prisons do we need to build Crin?

These two subjects in which we are talking about seem to be allowed way too much emphasis in a Conservative's life to be aware of how much collective liberty we are sacrificing to think that way. Abortion is legal....so is being gay. However other matters of importance, such as our liberty is at stake. our failure to unify in these beliefs is causing us to lose more and more "rights" every day. The Republicans cannot win this social war, they are failing. They don't stand for the core beliefs of American life anymore. Libertarians do! Libertarians stand for the philosophical likeness of the political beliefs of our forefathers. We are not willing to com[promise liberty and in doing so must embrace all choice. All of it! Especially the right to teach our children what is right and wrong. If we do that well enough it willnot matter what social choices are and are not against the law. Our children will do right. They will make the right choices and it won't be "illegal" for them to do so. On our current course my friend...it most certainly could become such.

Imagine the possibilities under a National Health care system. Government withholding the most precious commodity we have from selected individuals who do not "conform" and have made bad choices such as rather to smoke or eat unhealthy food. It will happen Crin. That is going to happen to your children!!! The United States is going to decide if they live or die should the need arise. My friend...THAT is a much more important issue than whether we can teach them that the aforementioned sins are right or wrong.

It is counterproductive to continue to allow yourself to prescribe to a party whose agenda does not refuse to compromise on personal liberty. That is all I have ever said here. I do not advocate these choices and never will. That is the freedom I wish to continue to have and am losing every day because people who believe such as I do are afraid to band with me and other Libertarians because they feel they cannot "win". What if John Hancock would have thought like that Crin? What if while during those moments he pondered before placing that signature on that document he would have given into his fear of worrying about winning. he already knew he had very little chance of remaining alive but he knew he was on the side of right.

What about those young soldiers who spent their last moments on earth engaged in an act that would result in their paying with life to protect the liberty we felt so precious to our existance in the forming of our country? Our ability to choose to live the way we want. Do we not discredit their act by not standing up for absolute liberty? Absolute freedom?

[crin63]

If homosexuals kept it just between them, fine, but they don't. They are not satisfied with that. They are insisting on teaching children that it is normal, natural behavior. They want to pound it into their heads in school and make them play games pretending homosexuals are normal. They make children feel bad for thinking homosexuality is wrong. They are trying to do away with terms like mom and dad. I also know how they threaten to rape the children of those who oppose them. My friends were there when they were screaming it the kids and parents. They insist that we accept their deviant behavior as normal and want to silence our opposition to these practices through hate crime legislation.

We didn’t start this, they started it, when they decided to openly start trying to shove their lifestyle down our throats. They brought the war for our childrens minds to us. We didn’t go looking for this and we didn’t want it. They brought the war for our children to us when they tried to change the definition of marriage. What you seem to forget is that when it was just between them they weren’t satisfied.

If they would quit trying to pollute the minds of our children and leave them alone I wouldn't have the problem I have with them regardless of personal experience.

I am not and will not waiver in my opinion of them or how they should be treated until they back off and quit trying to mess with our children. When they quit trying to shove it down our childrens throats and keep it between themselves then I will back off.

When our kids are exposed to a barrage of propaganda day in and day out they end up succumbing to it at some level, regardless of how much we teach them against something. The peer pressure becomes overwhelming.

I have also said that they are welcome to come into my church and sit down quietly like everyone else. They are welcome to come and eat with us afterward so long as they mind their manners and don't cause any problems, just like anyone else. If they caused a problem they would be thrown out or arrested just like anyone else. I would make sure of it, since I deal with the problems that arise. We had a couple of lesbians show up right after prop 8 passed. I personally invited them to stay for food, which they did.

With regards to abortion after rape, thats a very tough position to be in. All I said is that God has wonderfully used some of those children born out of rape.