Crin...I am happy for you guys in that your wife is feeling better. Man, she had one huh?
Now......address post #13 pal! LOL. I'm filling out this Libertarian Membership card for you right now so it will be ready to mail.
Crin...I am happy for you guys in that your wife is feeling better. Man, she had one huh?
Now......address post #13 pal! LOL. I'm filling out this Libertarian Membership card for you right now so it will be ready to mail.
If you continue to think the way you have always thought, you will continue to get what you have always got!
A government big enough to provide you everything you need is big enough to take everything you have!
I disagree on the whole concept of separation of church and state. It was meant to be that we did not create a church state like the Church of England whereby it was mandatory for people and/or pastors to be a part of it. It was not meant to keep Biblical influence out of policy or decision making. I forget, maybe you can show me that in founding documents where it says that there cannot and should not be any Biblical influence.
I know you don't support abortion and what you see as infringing on one groups rights, I see as protecting the other groups rights.
The right for a baby from the time of conception to have life, liberty and to pursue happiness, its not the babies fault that it was conceived. For me its a simple concept. The moment the baby is conceived it should be protected. That should be the safest place in the world for that baby. If the mother doesn't want to keep the baby, put it up for adoption. I know people who waited for years to adopt children and others who would adopt children now except like everything else, there is way to much government intrusion into adoption. I have considered adopting now that my kids are mostly grown up but I wont because of government intrusion.
I also want to protect the rights of children to grow up as normal as possible, without the influence of predatory perverts. From a strictly personal viewpoint without any Biblical perspective. I don't want homosexuals to be given anything that lends to their appearance of normality. It is not normal. If it were normal they would be able to breed between themselves and have more offspring of their own kind. Since they cannot breed and create more of their own kind they have to recruit from the ranks of normal people. In order to recruit they have to have access to our children because they have to start teaching our children that its okay and its normal, just an alternative. Believe me when I say, that all the parental training in the world will not stop children from considering it normal and accepting it as normal because it is shoved down their throats at school and work.
Maybe you will recognize this little excerpt:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men”
And you think that we have made progress in acheiving these goals you speak of by using the system we have now?
Our forefathers were certainly more Libertarian than our politicians today. I think we would agree on that. Yet today we see the environment change to what it is.
If the Libertarian Party had more people with feelings and opinions like yours they could come full circle into a Party that could bring about the type of gradual change into the agenda we both feel would benefit America.
Political parties do adjust their platforms you know. When I joined the party we had no opinion on Imigration. We believed in totally open borders. The Libertarian Party has adjusted that item on the platform. You yourself say that you are more Libertarian than anything else. Ah...Crin.....knock knock brother!
No party is ever going to reflect the exact agenda of all of it's members. Which party represents the majority of yours and would be closer to the eventual agenda you would perceive proper for your country? By being involved you would be able to begin to influence that party to change. Imagine if ALL Republicans joined tomorrow! The agenda would then be majority Anti-Abortion and the party would have to adjust.
I'm done. Where do I mail the card?
PS...lets not let the crickets sing too long OK. They have been working hard on these threads and deserve a break. LOL.
If you continue to think the way you have always thought, you will continue to get what you have always got!
A government big enough to provide you everything you need is big enough to take everything you have!
Sorry but theres no need to mail the form. I won't be leaving the Republican Party until I find the right fit. If I'm gonna have to fight for a party to change like I would the Libertarian Party then why move? I can fight here where I am at for change. I may be beating my head against the wall but its a pretty thick scull.
I will not compromise on my positions. I will not join a party that is not opposed to abortion in its platform. I will not join a party that is pro homosexual rights. If that ever changes, I promise you will be one of the first people to know and a long apology will follow along with eating of crow.
Since you said you have a thick skull I'll just agree with you. You sure do. Of course you have a pretty version of a platform to stand on with that thick skull. LOL.
OK. I read your reply. I could say this. You choose to stay with a party that advocated the taking of a man's property so tax generating businesses and condos could be built. You are sticking with a party that allowed and passed a law to intrude upon the privacy of citizens personal conversations due to some lame attempt to detect national security risks. You have stuck with a party that hasn't sent an amendment to the floor to change abortion in years or made any attempte to outlaw homosexuality as you would like. You stay with a party that has its members turncoating one at a time to the other side in a search to gain a say in the power of being popular. Selling out that is.
OK....have it your way. You go ahead and stick with that party my friend. I must say they are making such wonderful progress in attacking those issues you seem to hold dear. I mean just look at the progress we have made in things like personal liberty too.
And as to your statement of how Christian values were prevalent in our original philosophy, I agree. And again I say I remember the executions too in God's name. This is not a government I want of people judging how each should live based on their self appointed right to be God. God is the only judge and we are all accountable to him and him only for the choices we make in the end. Continnuing to subscribe to a philosophy that is helping make life worse for Americans day after day while sitting back and not trying one's best to move toward the philosophy of the forefathers is counterproductive.
If you continue to think the way you have always thought, you will continue to get what you have always got!
A government big enough to provide you everything you need is big enough to take everything you have!
Like I said, if I'm going to have to fight within the party I'm affiliated with to change why wouldn't I just stay and fight to change the party I'm already with. It makes no sense to switch to another party and start fighting to change it. If another party emerges that I find I have a better fit with, I will switch.
The homosexual issue will become a moot point politically speaking in the near future. I think its probably to late to stem the tide. They have/had a great game plan and marketing strategy. They laid out their plans in 1973 I think it was and have executed it with precision.
When a Christian points out sin, he is not being judgmental. He is not judging people. God has already judged. The Christians is simply pointing out the violations of what God has already judged to be wrong. Do you tell someone they are dying from cancer or just let them die without trying to help them.
There have been very few executions ever done by actual Christians. They were done by people claiming to be Christians and claiming to be doing it in the name of God. However if you look at their beliefs and who they were acting on behalf of it was not based on biblical beliefs. I'm also not talking about a theocracy, just a return the principles and Godly beliefs of most of our founders.
I have just started doing my research on the faith of our founders. I have not yet verified but have been told that the Declaration of Independence was based on the sermons that were being preached from the pulpits of Americas churches. The whole taxation without representation thing is something of a distraction away from the realities. If taxation was so important and the main reason for our fight for independence then why was it number 17 on the list of grievances?
It was your job to convince me of the error of my ways. I remain unconvinced, guess you will be voting Republican next election.
If you continue to think the way you have always thought, you will continue to get what you have always got!
A government big enough to provide you everything you need is big enough to take everything you have!
Crin, with all due respect (and you deserve plenty), you have failed to do anything but establish the fact that you think government should be ran strictly by the bible. You have established that there was great influence by Christians in the set up of our founding philosophy. I acknowledge this. I also acknowledge that the vision of our forefathers saw it fit to understand that not everyone who would enter America would be Christian so Freedom of chosen worship was given great consideration in their philosophy as well. They also made sure to make it well known that a State too influenced by the Church would merely lead to the mistakes of the past in other nations. Church and State must remain seperate in order to ensure true liberty.
I have shown however that being a Libertarian falls clearly into the description of what our forefathers envisioned.
The two issues, as you describe them and I agree are Abortion and Homosexuality. I agree with the philosophy that they are both wrong. Abortion was of course illegal in the days of the forming of our nation. I would be good with that frankly and would support the overturning of Roe vs. Wade. On this item we agree. I do not think in some cases, such as rape that a woman should be imprisoned if she had an abortion. I admit, as you do, that this is a very difficult problem and has no simple answer.
Homosexuality was around in those times too but obviously was tucked deep in the closet of those who partook in this incidious activity. It is wrong, the bible says it is wrong, most people think it is wrong. I agree to all of that. What I would not allow it to do is influence me to not align myself with the best philosophy of the rest of the agenda. This would be empowering homos way too much. Libertarians have a much closer agenda to my beliefs in all other areas. If I were to allow the Freedom of Choice issue of Social life to stop me from believing I could do more good as A Libertarian I would be doing exactly that. Which you are! You are empowering homosexuals my friend. You are allowing them to stop you from endorsing the political philosophy you yourself say is closer to your beliefs than that of the liberty evading Republicans.
In closing......
You are being repeticious!
You are being closed minded!
You are trailing in this debate!
Your turn......
Last edited by emmett; 08-10-2009 at 12:30 PM.
If you continue to think the way you have always thought, you will continue to get what you have always got!
A government big enough to provide you everything you need is big enough to take everything you have!
Your silence on this issue makes me think you only two points of why you would not vote Libertarian are Abortion and Homosexuality. Well....you said that so I agree it is true. I am especially impressed with how your party has dealt with these issues over the years and made America an obviously better place because of their position.
Here is a question for you. I know you are a fan of Glenn Beck, or at least I had the impression you were, if Glenn Beck ran for President as a Libertarian in 2012 would you vote for him since he shares an almost identical view to your own. Beck is pretty much anti-gay and is wildly supportive of anti-abortion legislation but as all know is a line item Libertarian from there. Sort of like an "Emmett" you might say.
To answer the question in reverse form to myself: Would I vote for Glenn Beck if he were to run as a Republican, the answer is a resounding YES....I would!
If you continue to think the way you have always thought, you will continue to get what you have always got!
A government big enough to provide you everything you need is big enough to take everything you have!
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
Samuel Adams
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Just joggin on you a little. Top of the day to you sir.
Repeat the question: If Glenn Beck (or a similarly likeminded) Libertarian ran for presidsent, would you vote for them?
Then maybe throw in some comment on how your philosophy differs or is strikingly similar to that of a Glenn beck (cause it is).
Don't you think it feasible that a candidate such as a Beck could accomplish the suggestion I made a few posts ago about beginning a tweaking of the Conservative Libertarian political philosophy into something a bit more palletable to more people (such as those Libertarians who are more socially liberal)who share many of "our" beliefs.
Since the three issues seem to be;
1) Abortion
2) Homosexuality / Gay Marriage
3) The War on Drugs
(4. For me - Eminant Domain)
Republicans (as Immanuel mentioned in the Comments thread) have done a poor job of representing the issues you seem passionate about. They certainly haven't made any progress in maintaining Conservatism in their platform. I mean look at the candidate they just ran. He is most certainly the most liberal Republican to ever reach the final ticket. He has been wishy washy on Abortion and clearly endorses Homosexuality since he addresses them in speeches. You voted for him I suppose (?).
Libertarians trump Republicans in my opinion on issues like taxation. We support Tax Reform in the way of either Fair / Flat tax. I think that resonates with almost every Republican on the planet yet I don;t hear Republicans hammering away at this issue (except Ron Paul who is really a Libertarian).
Republicans caved into the left with Medicare Drug benefits which as you know have cost us ten times more than originally predicted.
Republicans not only caved but literally instigated the biggest infringement into our social liberty with the interoduction of the Patriot Act. I don;t see that as being very friendly to personal liberty.
Maybe you could address some of these issues, I'd really like to see your opinions.
Take your time. 2012 is three years away.
Last edited by emmett; 08-25-2009 at 11:27 AM.
If you continue to think the way you have always thought, you will continue to get what you have always got!
A government big enough to provide you everything you need is big enough to take everything you have!
Hello my friend.
I have to agree that Republicans have failed miserably, they may never figure it out and I will in all likelihood leave the Republican Party. I was opposed to the Patriot Act because it gave to much power to the government to interfere in our lives, especially in the wrong hands. Laws that go beyond our Constitution are double edged weapons that cut both ways.
Might I vote for a Libertarian Presidential candidate, sure. Will I join the Libertarian Party, not likely, unless the platform changes. I would very likely vote for Beck. Beck/Nugent 2012 would be an interesting ticket.
I'm going to be looking very closely at the different parties in the coming months leading up to the next elections. I will be looking at the Constitution Party again to see if they have made the changes I see as necessary to join them. I almost joined the CP but they were affiliated with the Independent Party, had no representation here and picked the wrong candidate in Chuck Baldwin. Had they picked Judge Roy Moore and had he accepted I probably would have gone that route. Judge Roy Moore could have pulled the votes away from all sides and gave it a serious run I believe.
I voted for McCain yes but only because I saw the great evil coming our way in Barak Obama. Trying to defeat that great evil was more important than voting elsewhere for someone who had absolutely no chance of winning. Even a RINO like McCain would have been better than what we are now saddled with. Although Americans are getting to see the real Democrats right now in this Fascist Socialist President. Maybe this will turn America around and get us back on the right course.
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
Samuel Adams
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
And a top of this wonderful Sunday evening to you sir.....
Finally a post where the issues of Abortion and Homosexuality didn't highlight your opinion on this issue.
I have to say that the occurances of the past few days should have encouraged all to understand exactly what my point has been. Between 1 and 2 million Americans converging on Washington in a protest of the way government is railroading the liberty and rights of people to be properly represented by their elected officials.
Then again...someone could say.....ONLY 1 or 2 million couldn't they? Well...actually...no they can't. Those folks (mostly Libertarian as I am sure you will agree, not party Libertarian, fundamentally Libertarian) are sure stirring the shitpot. Glenn Beck, whom I am happy to know you would support, and I assure you would run as a Libertarian, would be a fantastic choice.
My point......it dosen't take a majority to win change, just a constant and dedicated minority if the cause is just. And..my friend...their cause IS just!!!
I was delighted to see the Ron Paul shirts all over the place and thought back to how Republicans called him a "kook" and how they made fun of him during the Rally for Liberty last year however I have to think that the major core of the folks on the mall were indeed his supporters from last year, along with other Conservative supporters, Libertarians and concerned Americans. Together, by uniting based on their common ground, NOT arguing over the parts they disagree on, they have sent the loudest civil message ever heard in the country on one given day in rebellion to a government that wishes to ram down our throats a policy that they unilaterally disagree with. I assume you and I would both be in that crowd if able yet we are here "debating" an issue, party affiliation and some topics we "disagree on.
Now my point would be this in closing. In order to accomplish a unilateral objective, would not these folks be wise to "vote" together to accomplish first the important objective first, then "debate" later to eliminate any "holes" in their collective philosophy?
We are in this mess because we failed in the past to properly support Liberty. As voters we allowed ourselves to think it was more important to "win" than to stand up on principle. This huge group of wonderful Americans has proven you don;t have to have a 51% majority to get attention. They cannot be ignored because they insist they cannot.
Liberty and Freedom of Choice must come first!
If you continue to think the way you have always thought, you will continue to get what you have always got!
A government big enough to provide you everything you need is big enough to take everything you have!
I missed our little debate here in own little corner of the world, as I always enjoy your point of view even when we disagree. Which still needs to be pointed out is very little.
I'm very encouraged by what we saw the past few days and I am looking forward to seeing where this whole things goes. It will be very interesting to see what party arises out of this.
I was very impressed with the guy who asked the crowd to quiet down so that the CNN reporter could ask her question. He told the crowd that they didn't have to shout her down, it really showed the difference between those who love liberty and the left in this country. Personally I think it is quite telling the difference between how the sides protest. I'm surrounded by cars that have Obama stickers on them. I would never vandalize those peoples cars, however if I had any kind of political sticker on my car that they didn't like, my truck would get keyed, the sticker would be torn off and my truck would get trashed. Someone took my NRA life member emblem off my truck. Those on the left don't want free speech, they just wanna beat us into submission.
I haven't had a chance to watch the Glenn Beck show from Saturday yet but I am looking forward to it. I hope to sit down tomorrow and watch some of it.
I think these last few days have shown that average Americans have not given up on America. That the dream is still alive. I think this the best I have felt about the chance for our country in a couple decades.
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
Samuel Adams
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Me too Crin, and it actually does lend something to our debate.....AND....as much as I am pleased to say....supports my side sir. Not that I think you wrong! It simply supports of of the very difficult point I was trying to make in some of the first posts, which I failed on at times to articulate properly which left you with what could have been a miscommunication on my behalf.
Example: I am certain that not all of those over 1 million citizens that congregated to demonstrate this past weekend were in agreement about every single thing on each's agenda. I'm sure many of them had your opinion of a strong religious based society of law, while mine were more liberal in that particular sense and while believers, think it necessary for each to choose his own way so long as it does not immediately infringe on another's liberty. The thing they all had in common was obvious and together they made quite an impression on both you, as you admit you feel better than you have in decades, and me, as I do as well. Hmmmm!
Sort of goes back to the point I made about finding common denominators first! Such as Liberty! Freedom! Choice! Rights! Smaller Government. These are Libertarian core beliefs. I'm sure I need not explain that to you as I have never meant to say you did not understand that. My point has always been to accuse you of being slightly narrow on the religious end and that I felt it was a violation of one's liberty to allow people to decide for others how they should live. That creates BIGGER government and goes against everything liberty stands for. Liberty is not elastic Crin, you can't have Liberty in a country where any sect, Christian or otherwise, has the ability to tell others how to live.
This does meran to suggest that I do not think it is right. I simply refuse to compromise on a belief that Liberty comes first. Absolute Liberty....not a watered down version but real true liberty.
Again...I repeat that in a perfect society there would be no homosexuality or abortions as far as I am concerned.
The folks we saw over the weekend had one thing in common....what was it?
That is my point! AND......they made theirs together while I am sure there differences among them of some regard.
If you continue to think the way you have always thought, you will continue to get what you have always got!
A government big enough to provide you everything you need is big enough to take everything you have!