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  1. #31
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    "To say that speaking out against the war doesn't hurt anything is BULLSHIT and you know it as well as I do maine."

    Here is what I know: I know that an America where people feel somehow compelled to hold their tongues and not speak out against tyranny or folly is an America that has lost its soul and become a fascist police state.

    If our enemies use our words against us, that is far less damaging than if we compel that silence amongst ourselves out of fear.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by manfrommaine View Post
    "To say that speaking out against the war doesn't hurt anything is BULLSHIT and you know it as well as I do maine."

    Here is what I know: I know that an America where people feel somehow compelled to hold their tongues and not speak out against tyranny or folly is an America that has lost its soul and become a fascist police state.

    If our enemies use our words against us, that is far less damaging than if we compel that silence amongst ourselves out of fear.


    Why all the drama? What you refuse to see is the War in Iraq is the USA speaking-out/acting-out against Tyranny. That War is SAVING potentially MILLIONS Of lives. Hundreds of Thousands of people will NO LONGER be afflicted by torture, death, and dismemberment by their own government. It's among the most noble of causes.
    “… the greatest detractor from high performance is fear: fear that you are not prepared, fear that you are in over your head, fear that you are not worthy, and ultimately, fear of failure. If you can eliminate that fear—not through arrogance or just wishing difficulties away, but through hard work and preparation—you will put yourself in an incredibly powerful position to take on the challenges you face" - Pete Carroll.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmp View Post
    Why all the drama? What you refuse to see is the War in Iraq is the USA speaking-out/acting-out against Tyranny. That War is SAVING potentially MILLIONS Of lives. Hundreds of Thousands of people will NO LONGER be afflicted by torture, death, and dismemberment by their own government. It's among the most noble of causes.
    could you type that with a straight face?

    You ask the man on the street in Baghdad if things are better now than they were four years ago.... then come back and talk to me.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by manfrommaine View Post
    could you type that with a straight face?

    You ask the man on the street in Baghdad if things are better now than they were four years ago.... then come back and talk to me.
    I have it from a guy who does asks people on the streets of baghdad. So I know my info is good. By FAR the average Habbib on the street WELCOMES the chance for Freedom brought by America and other compassionate countries with the backbone to stand and fight.

    Why are you so short-sighted? I suppose asking ANYONE in ANY country who is involved in War "Do you have it better NOW, or before the war?" people would say 'Before the war'. So what?

    Ask people 10 years from now the same question, and The USA will be praised as the Great Western ANGELS who freed them from Satan. More or Less.
    “… the greatest detractor from high performance is fear: fear that you are not prepared, fear that you are in over your head, fear that you are not worthy, and ultimately, fear of failure. If you can eliminate that fear—not through arrogance or just wishing difficulties away, but through hard work and preparation—you will put yourself in an incredibly powerful position to take on the challenges you face" - Pete Carroll.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by manfrommaine View Post
    "To say that speaking out against the war doesn't hurt anything is BULLSHIT and you know it as well as I do maine."

    Here is what I know: I know that an America where people feel somehow compelled to hold their tongues and not speak out against tyranny or folly is an America that has lost its soul and become a fascist police state.

    If our enemies use our words against us, that is far less damaging than if we compel that silence amongst ourselves out of fear.
    It's not a matter of people holding their tongue. It's a matter of selective publishing and reporting of news and falsification of news. And using the media to make it seem like everyone hates Bush and the government in order to get political power. It empowers the enemy to keep up their efforts as it appears we are too divided to continue the war effort. This war has dragged out far longer than it needed too because of the anti-war propaganda fed by the media. Its all partician politics played by the the dems and the media and I blame them for every death that has occurred among our service people since 2004.

    we have to quell the problems in iraq because we have a serious confrontation coming with iran real soon.
    When I die I'm sure to go to heaven, cause I spent my time in hell.

    You get more with a kind word and a two by four, than you do with just a kind word.

  6. #36
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    to blame the failures we have experienced in this war on the media is disingenuous and irresponsible. The failures we have experienced were because we DID try to do it on the cheap and we DID not plan for the post invasion insurgency and recovery operation and we DID torture Iraq citizens in the exact same prison where the man we overthrew because he was a torturer tortured Iraqi citizens..... it was not because the media reported those things. The insurgency does not get its energy and commitment from watching CNN or reading the NYT... it comes from centuries of enmity - to rival sects in Islam and to crusading christian invaders.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaffer View Post
    It's not a matter of people holding their tongue. It's a matter of selective publishing and reporting of news and falsification of news. And using the media to make it seem like everyone hates Bush and the government in order to get political power. It empowers the enemy to keep up their efforts as it appears we are too divided to continue the war effort. This war has dragged out far longer than it needed too because of the anti-war propaganda fed by the media. Its all partician politics played by the the dems and the media and I blame them for every death that has occurred among our service people since 2004.

    we have to quell the problems in iraq because we have a serious confrontation coming with iran real soon.
    I don't deny the media is biased and slanted on the coverage of Iraq. Bush does take a lot of unfair criticism. But how do you explain Republican critics of the war? Chuck Hagel and Arlen Specter have been critical from the start. There are boatloads of other Repubs that have been just as vocal. How can it be all partisan politics if some of the Repubs have been saying the same things from the get go?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by manfrommaine View Post
    The failures we have experienced were because we DID try to do it on the cheap and we DID not plan for the post invasion insurgency and recovery operation
    To say the military leadership did not PLAN is disingenuous and irresponsible. To say their plans were not adequate, however, in hindsight, of course is accurate. God Bless hindsight, eh?

    and we DID torture Iraq citizens in the exact same prison where the man we overthrew because he was a torturer tortured Iraqi citizens
    That's a pretty ridiculous statement. Do you know what Torture is?

    The insurgency does not get its energy and commitment from watching CNN or reading the NYT... it comes from centuries of enmity - to rival sects in Islam and to crusading christian invaders.
    You've never studied the Crusades - How can you honestly cite them? The Crusades were a DEFENSIVE war / Recovery War. AFTER Muslims attacked and invaded, Europeans and others went to the region to REPEL the invading Muslim armies. It's SORT OF like when Iraq Invaded Kuwait, and we stepped up and repelled the invading Iraqi forces.
    “… the greatest detractor from high performance is fear: fear that you are not prepared, fear that you are in over your head, fear that you are not worthy, and ultimately, fear of failure. If you can eliminate that fear—not through arrogance or just wishing difficulties away, but through hard work and preparation—you will put yourself in an incredibly powerful position to take on the challenges you face" - Pete Carroll.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirt mcgirt View Post
    There are boatloads of other Repubs that have been just as vocal. How can it be all partisan politics if some of the Repubs have been saying the same things from the get go?

    ....Blatant Political Opportunism, IMO...largely, anyway.
    “… the greatest detractor from high performance is fear: fear that you are not prepared, fear that you are in over your head, fear that you are not worthy, and ultimately, fear of failure. If you can eliminate that fear—not through arrogance or just wishing difficulties away, but through hard work and preparation—you will put yourself in an incredibly powerful position to take on the challenges you face" - Pete Carroll.

  10. #40
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    To say the military leadership did not PLAN is disingenuous and irresponsible. To say their plans were not adequate, however, in hindsight, of course is accurate. God Bless hindsight, eh?
    I believe that the military leadership's plans were ignored in favor of civilian leadership's plans. Testimony of CJSC at the time bears this out



    That's a pretty ridiculous statement. Do you know what Torture is?
    I DO know what torture is.... I have read the UN treaty on torture... I have read the reports of courts martials on military personnel who have been convicted of torturing Iraqis to death.Do you deny that has happened?

    You've never studied the Crusades - How can you honestly cite them? The Crusades were a DEFENSIVE war / Recovery War. AFTER Muslims attacked and invaded, Europeans and others went to the region to REPEL the invading Muslim armies. It's SORT OF like when Iraq Invaded Kuwait, and we stepped up and repelled the invading Iraqi forces.

    I have, in fact, studied the crusades, and there are indeed two sides to every story. The atrocities committed at the hands of the crusaders are every bit as heinous as those committed by the muslims

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmp View Post
    ....Blatant Political Opportunism, IMO...largely, anyway.
    That and RINO's
    When I die I'm sure to go to heaven, cause I spent my time in hell.

    You get more with a kind word and a two by four, than you do with just a kind word.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by manfrommaine View Post
    To say the military leadership did not PLAN is disingenuous and irresponsible. To say their plans were not adequate, however, in hindsight, of course is accurate. God Bless hindsight, eh?
    I believe that the military leadership's plans were ignored in favor of civilian leadership's plans. Testimony of CJSC at the time bears this out

    Yes I believe there was too much civilian interferrence...again.


    That's a pretty ridiculous statement. Do you know what Torture is?
    I DO know what torture is.... I have read the UN treaty on torture... I have read the reports of courts martials on military personnel who have been convicted of torturing Iraqis to death.Do you deny that has happened?

    How did you come by these reports? Why weren't these all over the news as more propaganda against Bush. I have heard alot about mistreatment, but never anything about torture. How many torture cases were there?

    You've never studied the Crusades - How can you honestly cite them? The Crusades were a DEFENSIVE war / Recovery War. AFTER Muslims attacked and invaded, Europeans and others went to the region to REPEL the invading Muslim armies. It's SORT OF like when Iraq Invaded Kuwait, and we stepped up and repelled the invading Iraqi forces.

    I have, in fact, studied the crusades, and there are indeed two sides to every story. The atrocities committed at the hands of the crusaders are every bit as heinous as those committed by the muslims
    There are two sides to every story. In the case of the crusades it was a self defense move on the part of the christian nations. Barbarous acts took place on both sides. That went with the times, mideval and all. They basically fought to a stalemate. The muslim caliphate was stopped. The goal of islam then and now is the conquest of the world.
    When I die I'm sure to go to heaven, cause I spent my time in hell.

    You get more with a kind word and a two by four, than you do with just a kind word.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by manfrommaine View Post
    I believe that the military leadership's plans were ignored in favor of civilian leadership's plans. Testimony of CJSC at the time bears this out
    You're free to believe what you wish, aren't you. You believe fantasy. The people who made the call are civilians - (SECDEF, etc). Not everyone in the military thinks the same way. People present various courses of action to senior leadership who in the end, makes the call.


    I DO know what torture is.... I have read the UN treaty on torture... I have read the reports of courts martials on military personnel who have been convicted of torturing Iraqis to death.Do you deny that has happened?
    Yeah - I don't know of ANY Servicemember charged with 'torturing'.

    I have, in fact, studied the crusades, and there are indeed two sides to every story. The atrocities committed at the hands of the crusaders are every bit as heinous as those committed by the muslims
    They why villify JUST the crusaders?
    “… the greatest detractor from high performance is fear: fear that you are not prepared, fear that you are in over your head, fear that you are not worthy, and ultimately, fear of failure. If you can eliminate that fear—not through arrogance or just wishing difficulties away, but through hard work and preparation—you will put yourself in an incredibly powerful position to take on the challenges you face" - Pete Carroll.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by manfrommaine View Post
    I can't wait for the chickenhawk pompom waving members of the fighting keyboardist brigade to label those servicemen who are seeking redress as cowards and traitors...

    get ready folks.
    Servicemembers are as entitled to oppose the war as anyone else. It is also within their rights to present their grievances to their Congressperson.

    The questions I have are:

    Is Kucinich the representative of each and every servicemember?

    Are these servicemembers going to make political statements in uniform in public?

    It seems obvious this is a publicity ploy on the part of Kucinich. If teh servicemembers make political statements in public in uniform they can be nailed for it.

    I'm just wondering if Kucinich and each and every servicemember is aware of this.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

  15. #45
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    You're free to believe what you wish, aren't you. You believe fantasy. The people who made the call are civilians - (SECDEF, etc). Not everyone in the military thinks the same way. People present various courses of action to senior leadership who in the end, makes the call.

    I said that the plans that we used going in were terrible and that they were determined by civilians... and that the Chair of the Joint Chiefs publicly disagreed with RUmmy on the number of troops that would be needed to accomplish the reconstruction. He was right...Rummy was wrong. Now if you think that is fantasy, there is little left to discuss on that point.

    Yeah - I don't know of ANY Servicemember charged with 'torturing'.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...w113007S95.DTL

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in614905.shtml

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/20/in...14cfd6&ei=5088

    http://english.aljazeera.net/News/ar...ArchiveId=3531

    http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstra...AA0894DD404482

    I could go on...but you get the point.


    They why villify JUST the crusaders?

    I didn't... read my words in context...I was explaining the source of the enmity felt by muslims. Now clearly, muslims aren't going to feel enmity about the treatment of the crusaders at the hands of muslims, are they?

    Do you feel compelled to argue just for the sake of arguing??

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