Coming To Our Shores.......NOW!

[OCA]

then please just answer these questions:

should we assume that all muslims are our enemies? should be round up American muslims - including the elected member of congress - and put them all in detention camps for the duration of the war against Islam? What "rules of war" have anything to do with muslim worship in mosques in American cities?


How do you "exercise caution" when discriminating against your own citizens and considering certain groups of them to be "potential enemies" solely on the basis of their religion? What civil rights do you flush down the toilet in the exercise of that caution?

Here is the problem: there are probably many moderate and maybe even liberal Muslims but, and this is a big but, the radicals are their voice, for some reason the aforementioned mods and libs dare not speak out against them and in most cases end up falling in lockstep with the radicals such as the case with the election of Hamas in Palestine, until Muslims themselves purge theirselves of the radical scum in their midst they should ALL be looked at with a wary eye.

[retiredman]

Here is the problem: there are probably many moderate and maybe even liberal Muslims but, and this is a big but, the radicals are their voice, for some reason the aforementioned mods and libs dare not speak out against them and in most cases end up falling in lockstep with the radicals such as the case with the election of Hamas in Palestine, until Muslims themselves purge theirselves of the radical scum in their midst they should ALL be looked at with a wary eye.

talking about Hamas and Palestine in this discussion about American muslims is meaningless and clouds the issue.

[OCA]

talking about Hamas and Palestine in this discussion about American muslims is meaningless and clouds the issue.

Not when the money trail leads from here to there.

[jillian]

Not when the money trail leads from here to there.

Actually, I'm gonna jump in on that one. The answer is yes... and no. The Palestinians and Hamas had nothing to do with 9/11, only with anti-Israel terrorism. Now, that doesn't mean that I think they should be any less squashed and that I think the money should be cut off any less readily. But it isn't the same issue as Al Queda and direct threats on the U.S. The issues have to be separated in order to engage in meaningful and intelligent policy.

[OCA]

Actually, I'm gonna jump in on that one. The answer is yes... and no. The Palestinians and Hamas had nothing to do with 9/11, only with anti-Israel terrorism. Now, that doesn't mean that I think they should be any less squashed and that I think the money should be cut off any less readily. But it isn't the same issue as Al Queda and direct threats on the U.S. The issues have to be separated in order to engage in meaningful and intelligent policy.

No, this where you guys don't or just plain refuse to get it. Its one big intertwined rats nest with all these guys, the lib media wants you to believe otherwise but it don't take a rocket scientist to figure it out......that is unless you seriously believe that Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah etc. etc. have never had contacts or conducted business with one another.

Basically when you get to the bottom goal of all these organizations they are all one and the same.....a Muslim sphere of influence over most of the world...a sphere of influence void of infidels.

[Mr. P]

A radical Muslim is a radical Muslim regardless of the tag..

[jillian]

No, this where you guys don't or just plain refuse to get it. Its one big intertwined rats nest with all these guys, the lib media wants you to believe otherwise but it don't take a rocket scientist to figure it out......that is unless you seriously believe that Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah etc. etc. have never had contacts or conducted business with one another.

Basically when you get to the bottom goal of all these organizations they are all one and the same.....a Muslim sphere of influence over most of the world...a sphere of influence void of infidels.

No. This is where you guys lack subtlety and go after with a nuke what you should be going after with a carving knife. Have you any proof of Al Queda and Hamas doing business? Or are you just surmising?

I've always felt that our guys should have been trained by the Mossad in how to deal with terrorists.

No... Hamas is not the same as Al Queda. Its focus is not on fundamentalism, it's on destruction of Israel. Near as I can tell, there's no global objective.

[OCA]

No. This is where you guys lack subtlety and go after with a nuke what you should be going after with a carving knife. Have you any proof of Al Queda and Hamas doing business? Or are you just surmising?

I've always felt that our guys should have been trained by the Mossad in how to deal with terrorists.

No... Hamas is not the same as Al Queda. Its focus is not on fundamentalism, it's on destruction of Israel. Near as I can tell, there's no global objective.

You simply can't be that naive.

Not naive. You disagree with me, prove they have objectives outside of Israel. There is a difference between pan-Arabism, which goes back to Nassar and globalism, which is a fairly recent phenomenon.

[Grumplestillskin]

AQ isn't even a real organisation. It is an ideal. It's a mish mash of fundies trying to impose their ideology in the ME. There is no evidence they are intent on taking over the world. In fact, OBL himself has said all they want in the West out of the ME, which won't happen while we rely on them for oil. The Western media call AQ a cohesive group in order to give a Western meaning. We like things to be nice and neat and put in little boxes. The fundies rely on that to help their cause. That is why terrorism will never be defeated. You can defeat an army, not an idea. All you can do with terrorism is try and limit its damage/influence.

[Gunny]

No. This is where you guys lack subtlety and go after with a nuke what you should be going after with a carving knife. Have you any proof of Al Queda and Hamas doing business? Or are you just surmising?

I've always felt that our guys should have been trained by the Mossad in how to deal with terrorists.

No... Hamas is not the same as Al Queda. Its focus is not on fundamentalism, it's on destruction of Israel. Near as I can tell, there's no global objective.

Here's the deal ....

Global domination is the goal of Islam as a whole. Now that isn't saying using violence to achieve that goal is the MO of Islam as a whole. But that ideal is fundamental to the religion.

You state that the goals of Hamas, Hezbollah and AQ are different. I disagree. All are motivated by the basic premise that no one but Arabs can live or basically step foot on Arab land. Hamas and Hezbollah attack Israel, while AQ's primary target is the US. Hamas is made up of indiginous Arabs claiming to be Palestinians. Hezbollah is funded and more than likely armed primarily by Iran, a Shia sect. AQ is funded by Wahabbi radicals.

The cause is the same for them, just as the presence of the US and Israel is the same. They just have two different fronts to their war.

[retiredman]

amateurs on here routinely get the entire cast of characters jumbled to varying degrees. I have no desire to do a detailed historical sketch on each member, but suffice it to say that there are several groups of antagonists.... sunnis hate shiites.... arabs hate persians... wahabbists hate baathists and secular pan-arabists, and they all, for the most part, hate Israel. Besides their varying layers of antagonism, they also have an equally complex set of goals and objectives. Hamas does not share a vision with Al Qaeda.... arab nationalism has little in common with the regional vision of wahabbism other than their fervent desire to see Jews out of the Holy Lands.

It is also a clear mistake to think that America is the ultimate target for Al Qaeda and other groups who espouse radically extreme wahabbism or Qtubism. We are an object of the wrath, to be sure...but our involvement is only seen as a means to an end...which is the uprising of muslims throughout the MIDDLE EAST (not the entire world) to cast out the secular corrupt nationalist political entities and form a regional caliphate that closely resembles in geography the boundaries of Islam at its greatest reach and zenith of influence. No one in any radical islamic group envisions an Islamis America.... we are out of the picture in the long run...we were only attacked for the dual purpose of (1)paying us back for supporting Israel and the corrupt Saudi royals and defiling the Muslim Holy lands with infidel troops in the First Gulf War. and (2) raising the anger at all things western and christian and secular in the people in the Islamic "street". By not understanding the players and by not understanding which ones are our real enemies and which ones just don't like us very much, we put ourselves in greater peril. To assume that the vast majority of muslims, here and abroad, hate America and are actively seeking our destruction will dilute our defenses.

For example: we were attacked on 9/11 by a group of wahabbists from Saudi Arabia.... and I completely applauded our action in attempting to uproot them and destroy them in Afghanistan which was, after all, their base. Following that ineffective effort with a full scale attack on a secular baathist regime in Iraq was inexplicable without the deceptions of WMD's and Al Qaeda connections which did not exist.

Saddam was, in fact, a total asshole, but the world is full of assholes running countries (some may say that our own country might very well be on that list, but I digress) We need to keep our eye on our enemies...and THEY are NOT and were NOT Iraqi baathists...
and they most certainly are not American muslims...

If we really want to convince arabs and muslims to stop killing us, we must figure out a more effective strategy than killing muslims indiscriminantly unless we are prepared to kill them ALL.

[Gunny]

amateurs on here routinely get the entire cast of characters jumbled to varying degrees. I have no desire to do a detailed historical sketch on each member, but suffice it to say that there are several groups of antagonists.... sunnis hate shiites.... arabs hate persians... wahabbists hate baathists and secular pan-arabists, and they all, for the most part, hate Israel. Besides their varying layers of antagonism, they also have an equally complex set of goals and objectives. Hamas does not share a vision with Al Qaeda.... arab nationalism has little in common with the regional vision of wahabbism other than their fervent desire to see Jews out of the Holy Lands.

It is also a clear mistake to think that America is the ultimate target for Al Qaeda and other groups who espouse radically extreme wahabbism or Qtubism. We are an object of the wrath, to be sure...but our involvement is only seen as a means to an end...which is the uprising of muslims throughout the MIDDLE EAST (not the entire world) to cast out the secular corrupt nationalist political entities and form a regional caliphate that closely resembles in geography the boundaries of Islam at its greatest reach and zenith of influence. No one in any radical islamic group envisions an Islamis America.... we are out of the picture in the long run...we were only attacked for the dual purpose of (1)paying us back for supporting Israel and the corrupt Saudi royals and defiling the Muslim Holy lands with infidel troops in the First Gulf War. and (2) raising the anger at all things western and christian and secular in the people in the Islamic "street". By not understanding the players and by not understanding which ones are our real enemies and which ones just don't like us very much, we put ourselves in greater peril. To assume that the vast majority of muslims, here and abroad, hate America and are actively seeking our destruction will dilute our defenses.

For example: we were attacked on 9/11 by a group of wahabbists from Saudi Arabia.... and I completely applauded our action in attempting to uproot them and destroy them in Afghanistan which was, after all, their base. Following that ineffective effort with a full scale attack on a secular baathist regime in Iraq was inexplicable without the deceptions of WMD's and Al Qaeda connections which did not exist.

Saddam was, in fact, a total asshole, but the world is full of assholes running countries (some may say that our own country might very well be on that list, but I digress) We need to keep our eye on our enemies...and THEY are NOT and were NOT Iraqi baathists...
and they most certainly are not American muslims...

If we really want to convince arabs and muslims to stop killing us, we must figure out a more effective strategy than killing muslims indiscriminantly unless we are prepared to kill them ALL.

The fact that the different sects hate each other is irrelevant where we are concerned because they ALL hate us more than they hate each other. IF you take the US and Israel out of the picture, only THEN will they go back to killing each other.

[retiredman]

whatever you say professor.

you clearly are a freakin' expert on the subject.... that and defense spending are obviously your areas of expertise

[Gunny]

whatever you say professor.

you clearly are a freakin' expert on the subject.... that and defense spending are obviously your areas of expertise

Not being impressed by you and your elitist attitude does not correlate to my claiming to be anything. The only condesending remarks I have seen where the topic of Islam is concerned come from you, toward anyone whose opinion differs from yours.

Your anti-US military/US, Muslim apologista agenda is pretty-damned clear to everyone, no matter how much smarter than the rest of us you think you are.

[OCA]

amateurs on here routinely get the entire cast of characters jumbled to varying degrees. I have no desire to do a detailed historical sketch on each member, but suffice it to say that there are several groups of antagonists.... sunnis hate shiites.... arabs hate persians... wahabbists hate baathists and secular pan-arabists, and they all, for the most part, hate Israel. Besides their varying layers of antagonism, they also have an equally complex set of goals and objectives. Hamas does not share a vision with Al Qaeda.... arab nationalism has little in common with the regional vision of wahabbism other than their fervent desire to see Jews out of the Holy Lands.

It is also a clear mistake to think that America is the ultimate target for Al Qaeda and other groups who espouse radically extreme wahabbism or Qtubism. We are an object of the wrath, to be sure...but our involvement is only seen as a means to an end...which is the uprising of muslims throughout the MIDDLE EAST (not the entire world) to cast out the secular corrupt nationalist political entities and form a regional caliphate that closely resembles in geography the boundaries of Islam at its greatest reach and zenith of influence. No one in any radical islamic group envisions an Islamis America.... we are out of the picture in the long run...we were only attacked for the dual purpose of (1)paying us back for supporting Israel and the corrupt Saudi royals and defiling the Muslim Holy lands with infidel troops in the First Gulf War. and (2) raising the anger at all things western and christian and secular in the people in the Islamic "street". By not understanding the players and by not understanding which ones are our real enemies and which ones just don't like us very much, we put ourselves in greater peril. To assume that the vast majority of muslims, here and abroad, hate America and are actively seeking our destruction will dilute our defenses.

For example: we were attacked on 9/11 by a group of wahabbists from Saudi Arabia.... and I completely applauded our action in attempting to uproot them and destroy them in Afghanistan which was, after all, their base. Following that ineffective effort with a full scale attack on a secular baathist regime in Iraq was inexplicable without the deceptions of WMD's and Al Qaeda connections which did not exist.

Saddam was, in fact, a total asshole, but the world is full of assholes running countries (some may say that our own country might very well be on that list, but I digress) We need to keep our eye on our enemies...and THEY are NOT and were NOT Iraqi baathists...
and they most certainly are not American muslims...

If we really want to convince arabs and muslims to stop killing us, we must figure out a more effective strategy than killing muslims indiscriminantly unless we are prepared to kill them ALL.

Watch out when you throw the word amateur around...as if you are the end all to be all.

Anyway a well worded essay even though its premise is fundamentally wrong. You realize that Islam at its height stretched to Spain and was making inroads northward into Europe before it panned out, right? Well these same groups want that territory back along with some new territory.

Anyway the media has trained you well, there is a very good piece on National Review's website that details the intricate weavings between all the major players on the Islamic side including connections between the Baathists and Al Qaeda and Baathists and Hamas, but since its National Review, a conservative magazine, I suppose you would dismiss the article as an opinion piece and non-factual since you've bought into the lies from the media and top Dems about no WMD and no Al Qaeda connections to Iraq.

Should I attempt to find it or is it a waste?