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  1. #1
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    Default Anglican head Williams says anti-gays misread Bible

    Don't think anyone knows anything. It's all just speculation till you die and find out.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070417/...6crUyDNlQDW7oF

    PARIS (Reuters) - The spiritual leader of the world's 77 million Anglicans has said conservative Christians who cite the Bible to condemn homosexuality are misreading a key passage written by Saint Paul almost 2,000 years ago.

    Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, addressing theology students in Toronto, said an oft-quoted passage in Paul's Epistle to the Romans meant to warn Christians not to be self-righteous when they see others fall into sin.

    His comments were an unusually open rebuff to conservative bishops, many of them from Africa, who have been citing the Bible to demand that pro-gay Anglican majorities in the United States and Canada be reined in or forced out of the Communion.

    "Many current ways of reading miss the actual direction of the passage," Williams said on Monday, according to a text of his speech posted on the Anglican Church of Canada's Web site.

    "Paul is making a primary point not about homosexuality but about the delusions of the supposedly law-abiding."

    The worldwide Anglican Communion is near breaking point over homosexuality, with conservative clerics insisting the Bible forbids gay bishops or blessings for same-sex unions. Its U.S. branch, the Episcopal Church, named a gay bishop in 2003.

    In fact, Williams also revealed on Tuesday that he had considered canceling the Anglicans' once-a-decade 2008 Lambeth Conference, which has the potential to become a flashpoint over homosexuality.

    "Yes, we've already been considering that and the answer is no," he told the Anglican Church of Canada's Anglican Journal.

    "We've been looking at whether the timing is right, but if we wait for the ideal time, we will wait more than just 18 months."

    In the passage of Romans that Williams referred to in Monday's speech, Paul said people who forgot God's words fell into sin. "Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion," Paul wrote.

    Williams said these lines were "for the majority of modern readers the most important single text in Scripture on the subject of homosexuality." But right after that passage, Paul warns readers not to condemn those who ignore God's word.

    "At whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself," wrote Paul, the first-century apostle whose epistles, or letters, to early Christian communities elaborated many Church teachings.

    NEITHER SIDE WINS

    Williams said reinterpreting Paul's epistle as a warning against smug self-righteousness rather than homosexuality would favor neither side over the other in the bitter struggle that threatens to plunge the Anglican Communion into schism.

    It would not help pro-gay liberals, he said, because Paul and his readers clearly agreed that homosexuality was "as obviously immoral as idol worship or disobedience to parents."

    This reading would also upset anti-gay conservatives, who have been "up to this point happily identifying with Paul's castigation of someone else," and challenge them to ask whether they were right to judge others, he added.

    "This does nothing to settle the exegetical questions fiercely debated at the moment," Williams said.

    But he said a "strictly theological reading of Scripture" would not allow a Christian to denounce others and not ask whether he or she were also somehow at fault.

    Williams warned of the danger of schism.

    "The Communion has to face the fact that there is a division in our Church and it's getting deeper and more bitter," he said. "If the Anglican Church divides, everyone will lose."

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    His reading is not only incorrect, it's blatantly. To claim no one knows, is absolutely incorrect because all anyone has to do is have integrity and read the passage to know what Paul is talking about.

    I suppose all of Paul's warnings against fornication is misinterpreted to? What does fornication now mean polishing ones shoes and Paul was really warniing against people who want to look good for Church... its ridiculous.

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    This is stupid. Here's what should happen. Christians should stop harassing gays because their religion is supposed to be about love, not hate. And gays should stop trying to be Christians because Christianity is against homosexuality, therefore Christianity is not the right religion for gays to belong to. And anybody who is gay should leave the church and that includes priests. End of story. Now that I've solved that, can I be the new Pope? I don't like this Kraut.
    Pork, good for you, bad for Muslims and Jews.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalNation View Post
    Don't think anyone knows anything. It's all just speculation till you die and find out.....
    I can see it now, you on one side of the pearly gates, St. Peter on the other with his hand on the release to the trap door you're standing on, asking you: "what part of 'abomination' did you fail to understand?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuc View Post
    This is stupid. Here's what should happen. Christians should stop harassing gays because their religion is supposed to be about love, not hate. And gays should stop trying to be Christians because Christianity is against homosexuality, therefore Christianity is not the right religion for gays to belong to. And anybody who is gay should leave the church and that includes priests. End of story. Now that I've solved that, can I be the new Pope? I don't like this Kraut.
    If we Christians fail to expose The Truth then we are sinners as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glockmail View Post
    If we Christians fail to expose The Truth then we are sinners as well.
    You've exposed the "Truth". Now stop exposing yourselves to young boys.
    Pork, good for you, bad for Muslims and Jews.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuc View Post
    You've exposed the "Truth". Now stop exposing yourselves to young boys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuc View Post
    This is stupid. Here's what should happen. Christians should stop harassing gays because their religion is supposed to be about love, not hate. And gays should stop trying to be Christians because Christianity is against homosexuality, therefore Christianity is not the right religion for gays to belong to. And anybody who is gay should leave the church and that includes priests. End of story. Now that I've solved that, can I be the new Pope? I don't like this Kraut.
    If gays were just trying to be churchmembers instead of GAY churchmembers, this issue wouldn't exist.

    I don't know any heterosexual churchmembers. Just churchmembers.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    I think Paul is very clear on his stance on homosexuality in his first letter to the Corinthians.

    9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
    He also makes it clear that you can be gay and still accept Jesus, but you're going to have to give up the gay lifestyle.
    "Lighght"
    - This 'poem' was bought and paid for with $2,250 of YOUR money.

    Name one thing the government does better than the private sector and I'll show you something that requires the use of force to accomplish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbit View Post
    He also makes it clear that you can be gay and still accept Jesus, but you're going to have to give up the gay lifestyle.
    I can't figure out why gays seem to think they should be given a different standard then everyone else. The Lord has one standard that is spelled out through the scriptures. Chastity before marriage and fidelity afterwards. And if you engage in any type of sin you need to repent and have your nature changed through the Atonement of Christ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbit View Post
    I think Paul is very clear on his stance on homosexuality in his first letter to the Corinthians.



    He also makes it clear that you can be gay and still accept Jesus, but you're going to have to give up the gay lifestyle.
    So would you say for the purposes of this argument that being a homosexual is worse than being a thief, adulterer, murderer, etc?
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    So would you say for the purposes of this argument that being a homosexual is worse than being a thief, adulterer, murderer, etc?
    Nope, but what is worse is that, typically, when a church-goer is caught stealing, cheating, murdering, etc., he'll typically go into a long, teary apology about how sorry he is and why he's sorry and that he'll never do it again. In other words, the person is repentant, recognizes that what he did was wrong, and attempts to make amends, as well as attempting to never commit this sin again. On the other hand, when a church-goer is found out to be committing homosexual acts, the first response is not repentance, it is contempt. The response is not, "I'm so sorry and I'll never do this again." It is instead, "Who are you to judge my lifestyle? I can't help it. I was born this way. You're just a bigot."

    Just like any other sin, part of repentance is turning away from your sinful ways.
    "Lighght"
    - This 'poem' was bought and paid for with $2,250 of YOUR money.

    Name one thing the government does better than the private sector and I'll show you something that requires the use of force to accomplish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbit View Post
    Nope, but what is worse is that, typically, when a church-goer is caught stealing, cheating, murdering, etc., he'll typically go into a long, teary apology about how sorry he is and why he's sorry and that he'll never do it again. In other words, the person is repentant, recognizes that what he did was wrong, and attempts to make amends, as well as attempting to never commit this sin again. On the other hand, when a church-goer is found out to be committing homosexual acts, the first response is not repentance, it is contempt. The response is not, "I'm so sorry and I'll never do this again." It is instead, "Who are you to judge my lifestyle? I can't help it. I was born this way. You're just a bigot."

    Just like any other sin, part of repentance is turning away from your sinful ways.

    “… the greatest detractor from high performance is fear: fear that you are not prepared, fear that you are in over your head, fear that you are not worthy, and ultimately, fear of failure. If you can eliminate that fear—not through arrogance or just wishing difficulties away, but through hard work and preparation—you will put yourself in an incredibly powerful position to take on the challenges you face" - Pete Carroll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glockmail View Post
    If we Christians fail to expose The Truth then we are sinners as well.
    Uh... are you suggesting that just because you've accepted Christ that you're no longer a sinner?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbit View Post
    Nope, but what is worse is that, typically, when a church-goer is caught stealing, cheating, murdering, etc., he'll typically go into a long, teary apology about how sorry he is and why he's sorry and that he'll never do it again. In other words, the person is repentant, recognizes that what he did was wrong, and attempts to make amends, as well as attempting to never commit this sin again. On the other hand, when a church-goer is found out to be committing homosexual acts, the first response is not repentance, it is contempt. The response is not, "I'm so sorry and I'll never do this again." It is instead, "Who are you to judge my lifestyle? I can't help it. I was born this way. You're just a bigot."

    Just like any other sin, part of repentance is turning away from your sinful ways.
    But no matter how hard we try, we cannot fully turn from our sinful ways.

    We, as humans, can judge homosexuals as humans. They are abnormal. You've been around long enough to know where I stand on the issue.

    I draw the line however at rendering God's judgement for Him. Whether or not a homosexual will be forgiven is not for us to say.

    Clearly, Paul presumes much and contradicts Christ if he preaches intolerance in his letter.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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