Anglican head Williams says anti-gays misread Bible

[darin]

But no matter how hard we try, we cannot fully turn from our sinful ways.

Not really true. When we accept Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit - who helps us suppress our desire to sin. While we're still human, and like ALL humans have a sinful NATURE, we do not sin 24/7. Sin is a specific uncontrolled desire or heart condition which separates us from God. I am FULLY turned from my sinful 'ways', yet still 'sin' insomuch as my human/fleshly desires still flare up and I cultivate lust, from time to time, or pride, etc.

We, as humans, can judge homosexuals as humans. They are abnormal. You've been around long enough to know where I stand on the issue.

I draw the line however at rendering God's judgement for Him. Whether or not a homosexual will be forgiven is not for us to say.

Clearly, Paul presumes much and contradicts Christ if he preaches intolerance in his letter.

Thankfully, God has given us his Judgment of the un-repentant sinner. That judgement is (Spiritual) death, and eternal separation from Him. It's quite appropriate to say a homosexual will not enter Heaven because by definition, a homosexual is an un-repentant sinner.

[Gunny]

Not really true. When we accept Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit - who helps us suppress our desire to sin. While we're still human, and like ALL humans have a sinful NATURE, we do not sin 24/7. Sin is a specific uncontrolled desire or heart condition which separates us from God. I am FULLY turned from my sinful 'ways', yet still 'sin' insomuch as my human/fleshly desires still flare up and I cultivate lust, from time to time, or pride, etc.




Thankfully, God has given us his Judgment of the un-repentant sinner. That judgement is (Spiritual) death, and eternal separation from Him. It's quite appropriate to say a homosexual will not enter Heaven because by definition, a homosexual is an un-repentant sinner.

I will get back to you on this.

[Hobbit]

But no matter how hard we try, we cannot fully turn from our sinful ways.

We, as humans, can judge homosexuals as humans. They are abnormal. You've been around long enough to know where I stand on the issue.

I draw the line however at rendering God's judgement for Him. Whether or not a homosexual will be forgiven is not for us to say.

Clearly, Paul presumes much and contradicts Christ if he preaches intolerance in his letter.

Correct, and I am not attempting to judge those that are homosexual. They will be judged by God. However, God has given us the Bible, along with a few other ways to determine right from wrong, and it is our duty as disciples to confront those living in sin with the truth. It is typically only considered proper to confront somebody within the church, as scripture won't work on somebody who doesn't believe in scripture, but that means that those who wish to both be in the church and live a gay lifestyle should be confronted in a caring way.

In fact, the method of confrontation is listed in another of Paul's letters (which one escapes me). You start by doing a one-on-one discussionth the person. If they repeatedly defend their ways or refuse to change them, find out if you're alone in your stance (if you are, you may be wrong). If you're not alone, get together some like-minded people and confront as a group. If this, too, doesn't work, bring the behavior to the attention of the pastor of the church. Finally, if that doesn't work, the person will probably have left the church, but should, in any case, be treated as any other human lost in sin (i.e. invited to church, befriended, talked to, etc.). Under no circumstances should anybody be completely shunned.

[glockmail]

Nope, but what is worse is that, typically, when a church-goer is caught stealing, cheating, murdering, etc., he'll typically go into a long, teary apology about how sorry he is and why he's sorry and that he'll never do it again. In other words, the person is repentant, recognizes that what he did was wrong, and attempts to make amends, as well as attempting to never commit this sin again. On the other hand, when a church-goer is found out to be committing homosexual acts, the first response is not repentance, it is contempt. The response is not, "I'm so sorry and I'll never do this again." It is instead, "Who are you to judge my lifestyle? I can't help it. I was born this way. You're just a bigot."

Just like any other sin, part of repentance is turning away from your sinful ways.

Based soley on your explanation, it seems that your answer should have been "yes".

[glockmail]

Uh... are you suggesting that just because you've accepted Christ that you're no longer a sinner?

No.

[Hobbit]

Based soley on your explanation, it seems that your answer should have been "yes".

Not really. The question was if being a homosexual is worse, which it is not. However, the attitude that typically accompanies it is an additional wrong. It is entirely possible for someone to be caught engaging in homosexual acts, then break down and apologize, repent, and attempt to turn away from that sin. It's just that, thanks to society, such a thing is rare.

Edit: It's certainly no worse than teenage whores who, when confront with the fact that they're whores, say something like, "It's my body. What business is it of yours what I do with it?"

[avatar4321]

Not really. The question was if being a homosexual is worse, which it is not. However, the attitude that typically accompanies it is an additional wrong. It is entirely possible for someone to be caught engaging in homosexual acts, then break down and apologize, repent, and attempt to turn away from that sin. It's just that, thanks to society, such a thing is rare.

Edit: It's certainly no worse than teenage whores who, when confront with the fact that they're whores, say something like, "It's my body. What business is it of yours what I do with it?"

It's not their body though. It was paid for with a price so severe that Christ Himself didn't want to go through with it, but did so anyway because He loves us.

[KarlMarx]

I looked up the Strong’s Lexicon/Concordance for 1 Corinthians 6:9

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=6&verse=9&version=KJV#9

I did some research into the words “malakoi” using a Greek to English Bible translation

The words of contention are “malakos” and “arsenokoites”


MALAKOS

According to Strong’s Concordance, the definitions for these words are as follows

1) soft, soft to the touch
2) metaph. in a bad sense
a) effeminate
1) of a catamite
2) of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man
3) of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness
4) of a male prostitute

According to Thayer’s Lexicon, the definition is

“Like the Latin “mollis”, metap and in a bad sense: effeminate, of a catamite, a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness”

ARSENOKITES:

Strong’s concordance
one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual

Thayer’s Lexicon
One who lies with a male as a female, a sodomite



I also used the Strong’s Concordance to look up Leviticus 18:22.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Lev&chapter=18&verse=22&version=KJV#22


The Hebrew goes something like this

Shakab zakar mishkab ishsah tow ebah

Each word translates (again using Strong’s Concordance)
Shakab = (to lie down in a sexual sense)
Zakar = (male)
Mishkab = (lying down as in a sexual sense)
Ishah = (womankind)
Tow ebah = (abomination)


We can approach this differently, by going to another source. Keep in mind that St. Paul was a Jew living in the first century. We also have a work written by another first century Jew, named Josephus.

Josephus lived shortly after St. Paul and wrote a series of histories. One concerned the Jewish History. In it, he describes the account of the overthrow of Sodom (Antiquities of the Jews - Book I, Chapter 11)

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/josephus/ant-1.htm


“1. ABOUT this time the Sodomites grew proud, …. they hated strangers, and abused themselves with Sodomitical practices. God was therefore much displeased at them, and determined to punish them for their pride, and to overthrow their city, and to lay waste their country, until there should neither plant nor fruit grow out of it.”

Josephus does not detail what the Sodomitical practices were, but in a later passage from the same chapter, we get a clue:

“…Now when the Sodomites saw the young men to be of beautiful countenances, and this to an extraordinary degree, and that they took up their lodgings with Lot, they resolved themselves to enjoy these beautiful boys by force and violence; and when Lot exhorted them to sobriety, and not to offer any thing immodest to the strangers, but to have regard to their lodging in his house; and promised that if their inclinations could not be governed, he would expose his daughters to their lust, instead of these strangers; neither thus were they made ashamed.”

I think this gives us a very good indication that Paul, like Josephus, regarded the practice of homosexuality to be a sin.

Certainly, the Gospels do not record Jesus’ teachings on homosexuality, but with St. Paul, we get a good idea of where Christ’s teachings were headed in this area,that is, that homosexuality is not acceptable in the Christian faith.

There are those who contend that, because Jesus' teachings on the subject of homosexuality appear no where in the Gospel, that Christians, especially St. Paul's disciples, added the prohibition against homosexuality to His teachings.

I don't agree with that contention and here's why.

In Christ's Sermon of the Mount, especially Matthew 5:27-32 Christ teaches the following:

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old,‘You shall not commit adultery.
28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
31Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’
32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

It seems his teachings regarding divorce and adultery go above and beyond the Law of Moses. With this in mind, I have to believe that Christ taught homosexuality was a sin because of His teachings on other areas of sexual behavior.

[Missileman]

It's not their body though.

That sounds awfully "Jim Jones-ish" or even Islamafascist. Do all Christians think this?

[Gunny]

Not really true. When we accept Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit - who helps us suppress our desire to sin. While we're still human, and like ALL humans have a sinful NATURE, we do not sin 24/7. Sin is a specific uncontrolled desire or heart condition which separates us from God. I am FULLY turned from my sinful 'ways', yet still 'sin' insomuch as my human/fleshly desires still flare up and I cultivate lust, from time to time, or pride, etc.




Thankfully, God has given us his Judgment of the un-repentant sinner. That judgement is (Spiritual) death, and eternal separation from Him. It's quite appropriate to say a homosexual will not enter Heaven because by definition, a homosexual is an un-repentant sinner.

You have a good argument. However, IMO, one can be repentent, still sin through the weakness of the flesh, and STILL be saved. I guess it all depends on how you choose to interpret the Bible.

Christ intones us to be tolerant and forgiving of everyone, including our enemies. Looks good on paper, much more difficult in practice.

I will also point out that while the Bible contains God's law, it does NOT contain his final judgement on all things. His actual final judgement is yet to come.

And while I have no problem with my faith, nor the intent of the Bible, it was STILL written by men, not God himself. As we all know, one word can change the entire meaning of a sentence. We have certain posters here who try to use itdishonestly to their advantage every day.

[5stringJeff]

That sounds awfully "Jim Jones-ish" or even Islamafascist. Do all Christians think this?

It's in the Bible, so all Bible-believing Christians do believe it:
1 Corinthians 6:19-20: "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body."

[Hobbit]

That sounds awfully "Jim Jones-ish" or even Islamafascist. Do all Christians think this?

It's hard to understand if you don't have the full context. Everything we have is really God's, and while you have free will to do what you will with it, it is your responsibility to take what God has given you and turn it into something great. God has given you a body to do with what you will, but throwing it away on sex and drugs and such is a waste.

[eighballsidepocket]

It's a long one folks, but please try to read it. It's not a copy paste job, but my own thoughts, except for some scripture quotes.Sincerely, Eightballsidepocket

The Apostle Paul clarifies this debate in the book of Romans chapter 1 and 7. Chapter 1 clearly makes specific that homosexuality is sinful both of males and females who participate in this unnatural act. Chapter 7, clearly explains that though a Christian is "saved", and is no longer at enmity with God, he/she still have to deal with the power of sin, that is a tempting, evil force, having access to tempt the Christian via their unredeemed body of flesh.

Though the Christian has received a new ressurrected spirit/nature via the work of God, through Christ's death/burial/ressurrection (Galatians 2:20 & Romans Chapter 6), Paul emphatically states in Romans chapter 7 that we have as Christians a continued battle with sin through the flesh. Though we have this new nature, and not the fallen nature before salvation, we do have the old "programming" in our brains, from before conversion. That must be purged or replaced with new programming that better-suits/conforms to our new identity/nature (Romans chapter 12, verse 2).

Now before I copy paste a couple of the above referred bible verses to support my comments, I want to briefly comment on homosexuality as it's being analyzed in this thread.

Homosexuality is sin, as stealing, murder, coveting, etc.. is. Yet, Christians, yes Christians can commit sin. John the Apostle in one of his Epistles clearly states that if a Christian claims to be without sin, he/she is a liar.

The difference here is that when a Christian received this new uncondemned, justified, nature from God, he/she still can be tempted by sin if he/she so allows or gives-in to it.

In the pre-salvation state, he/she had no choice, as God and even Jesus referred to all who weren't saved as children of the devil. Now this may sound rash and harsh, but Jesus was saying that there is no in-between state of standing in God's eyes as far as humanity is concerned. You're either in the "camp" of the "saved" and belong to God through Jesus's life, or you stand across a vast metaphorically canyon in the camp of those who will be judged and cut-off from God in the end.

Paul describes a triune make-up or model of man...i.e. body, soul, and spirit. The body is the actual physical, fleshly earth-suit so-to-speak that we will shed some day for a new body in heaven. The "body" is also the physical contact with this earthly life The soul comprises mind, emotions/feelings/feeler and will/chooser, and the spirit is the actual "spark" or life giving source of man that separates him from the inorganic in a sense. The spirit was intended to be the "go-between" with God and man, but from the time of the "fall" man's spirit has been dead to God and alive to sin and the world as it's means of seeking identity.

Of these three entities, the old, unredeemable, sin accessible, body will not hitch a ride to heaven with the Christian. A new body thats impervious to the fiery missles of sin/temptation will be the replacement upon our future ressurrection with Christ. (I will not at this time get into whether I'm pre, mid, or post tribulationist in my "take" on this matter.).

In a sense, our bodies as Christians are still an access point, or gate to allow the power of sin or temptation to evil to have access, via the "eye gate", "ear gate", feeler/touch gate, and other gates, as even a Christian who is physically blind and deaf can still be tempted to sin via the bodily gates. If you want to read a great metaphorical explanation that somehow helps many folks, "Pilgrim's Progress" by John Bunyon, is an excellent reading/book.
*******
So, yes we have a new nature.........yet, yes, us Christians do sin, but we have this new nature that is working in concert with the God's indwelling Holy Spirit to convict us of when we do sin, or consider sinning. Yet we still struggle, because outwardly via our unredeemed body, sin still "pounds" away via the work of fallen world, spiritual(demonic) beings, and Satan himself, to convince us that we aren't saved, that there is no God, no salvation, no Jesus, no hope...etc. Satan's main work is to make us Christians ineffectual, so that the Great Commission to go out into all the world and proclaim the good news of Jesus is thwarted. In one short sentence, the enemy does not want God/Jesus Glorified. He/Satan desires the undeserved glory from mankind.

Satan has no other access, but via this body and then onward to our mind, emotions/feelings. Now we are back to that mind. The human mind is a neutral, non-evil organ that's not unlike a hard drive. Our feelings or emotions are also a beautiful enhancement of our species to make our life experiences very special too. Emotions/feelings can either enhance or detract from the truth. Feelings are a secondary reliance, as they can give us false signals of reality. Satan loves to work on us via the feeler. If he can makes us "feel" unsaved or "feel" like losers, he's done his job. He's made us ineffectual. So we must fight "feelings" or "emotions" that contradict what God had emphatically told us is the truth about us as Christians. I.E. We must hold fact to the Word, and not our fluctuating, up and down feelings that sometimes confirm and often deny what is the reality of our true identity. For some folks, it's never been a problem, for other Christians, who have lived a very feelings oriented life before salvation, they will have to fight back and learn to lean on the objective and not so much the subjective in their interpretation of life's realities.

"Garbage in, garbage out.". Now that we have this new nature that isn't comforble with sin anymore, this neutral entity called our mind, must be purged of it's old programming that was acquired before our salvation and receiving God's Holy Spirit, and have new, correct, programming replace the old. That's where God's word, the scriptures or the Truth comes into play. That's why Paul says in Romans 12:2 that the renewing of our minds is essential to living a victorious Christian life. If the Christian doesn't take seriously the process of reading scripture to learn about his/her's new identity in Christ, he/she will not be able to thwart, or resist the temptations of the devil and the power of sin via the only access, the unredeemed body, and it's gates. We metaphorically need strong, smart gate keepers, and without understanding our new justified/righteous standing given to us via the grace of God through Jesus's life, we will live a most miserable life as a Christian. In fact our lives will be undiscernible from those that our lost, or not saved. The war within our soul between the power of sin and the suppressed Holy Spirit will create a most unfortunate being, and a totally ineffectual servant or ambassador of God, as we are supposed to become in our Christian maturing process.

So here comes the scripture:
Romans chapter 1 : 21-27, New American bible translation:

21For even though they knew God, they did not [c]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became (AO)futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22(AP)Professing to be wise, they became fools,

23and (AQ)exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and [d]crawling creatures.

24Therefore (AR)God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be (AS)dishonored among them.

25For they exchanged the truth of God for a (AT)lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, (AU)who is blessed forever. Amen.

26For this reason (AV)God gave them over to (AW)degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,

27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, (AX)men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

If that isn't explicit about homosexuality being one of many sins in God's eyes, then I'm a big baffoon and need some help interpretting it the right way.
*****
Romans chapter 7:14-25....This is the struggle with sin, of a godly man named Paul, whom we all know of.

14For we know that the Law is (Z)spiritual, but I am (AA)of flesh, (AB)sold (AC)into bondage to sin.
15For what I am doing, (AD)I do not understand; for I am not practicing (AE)what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with (AF)the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

17So now, (AG)no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my (AH)flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

19For (AI)the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, (AJ)I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

21I find then (AK)the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in (AL)the inner man, ( in other words, his redeemed, new nature doesn't want to sin, as it is joined with God's Holy Spirit.).

23but I see (AM)a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the (AN)law of my mind and making me a prisoner of (AO)the law of sin which is in my members.
24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from (AP)the body of this (AQ)death?

25(AR)Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh (AS)the law of sin.

So you see here folks, the Christian is saved, yet has a war on his/her's hand to "choose" between sin and righteousness.

This saved individual isn't evil, but is saved, yet they struggle. This is why the "identity" of the individual means everything. If we think we are "pigs" we will wallow in the mud and root for food and sustenance that way throughout our lives. If we "think" we are children of the King, and royal ambassadors for Him, then our minds are agreeing with the actual true nature that God has given us, and there will be inner peace, and no struggle.

As Paul explained, all of Christians will struggle with the flesh. As we seek to renew our minds with God's truths, we will still have the rearing-up of the old programming that wants to find solace, and meaning in the world, and it's enticements. Satan and sin will always be waiting and watching for a crack in the door or an open window. This is why we must gird ourselves with the spiritual armour of God. We must fill our minds with God's truth.

Now for the unsaved, they can read God's word all their lives and not be saved........sadly, as scripture, or God's word is understood via the work of God's Spirit working in conjunction with the Christians new nature/spirit.

This is why folks can go to church for years and then depart earthly life, and someday, Jesus will frightfully say, "I don't know you!". It isn't by charitable deeds, and loving works that we are Christians. It is by God's hand that we become His. It is via repentance and a contrite, humbled heart that we approach God, and leave all our excuses behind and accept the bold fact that we have nothing of value to offer God, but our naked selves, in a very pitiful state. We are at His mercy as we are a fallen race. It is Jesus who is the propitiation (payment) for our sinful natures that we were born with. It is not God's fault that we sin, or fall into homsexuality, adultry or whatever. We are not victims, we are perpetrators. We are at enmity with God, and Jesus was offered on the cross to end this enmity between us and God. The only thing holding us back is "us". Our pride, which comes in the form of knowledge, intellect, achievements, job status, etc....., all false securities. It is all wood, hay and stubble to God, who created us and everything anyway.
*****
Yes, a person can be saved and still be tempted to fall into homosexuality.........Paul had his thorn in the flesh that kept him very humble.......and folks that have been in the throws of homosexuality for most of their lives and become Christians don't necessarily quit having to struggle with the temptation of homosexuality. In fact it may "dog" them their entire lives after being saved, yet they have the Word of God, their wills, and the renewing of their minds to thwart the lie of homosexuality as being, "ok", and acceptable behaviour before their God.

I'm a worry-wart of a Christian. That's a sin in God's eyes. I'm supposed to be anxious for nothing, but in everything give thanks to God..........Phillipians 4:6-7, yet in so many ways, worry didn't cease when I was saved. I will say that this besetting sin , keeps me in a very humble state, and really smashes pride down to a small "p", as I see how vunerable I am to temptation without relying on God and the Holy Spirit to carry me along each day. I am tempted in many other areas too. Some are very embarrassing. Yet, I can stand tall in the strength of God, not my strength. He is my shield and armour, not "naked" me.

I've personally met and known people that were homosexuals, and were saved, yet still had to fight the temptation, as the old programming was still being purged from their minds via the Word of God( They buried themselves in scripture to learn about their new nature, and identity.). Some have actually married and carry on heterosexual lives, with less and less the temptations of homosexuality rear up. Yet, those temptations keep their lives, in "check" and remind them that they can't fight it on their own.

As Paul said........"When I am weak, He/God is strong".
*******

[gabosaurus]

How about "I am the God of ALL people"?
That sums it up pretty well.

[darin]

How about "I am the God of ALL people"?
That sums it up pretty well.

Except nobody but you would know what you're talkin' about.