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  1. #1
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    Default KSM and Others Trials In NYC Why?

    Right, cameras might be denied, but not the press. I'm sure there will be times that they 'go to chambers', but that's not the solution.

    Best thing I've seen, links at site:

    Power Line - Trying KSM: Why? part 2

    TRYING KSM: WHY? PART 2
    November 15, 2009 Posted by Scott at 7:59 AM

    Speaking at a town hall meeting in Pennsylvania last year during the campaign, Barack Obama addressed the Supreme Court's Boumediene decision granting Guantanamo detainees the right to challenge their confinement through habeas corpus proceedings in federal court. Obama asserted that the "principle of habeas corpus, that a state can't just hold you for any reason without charging you and without giving you any kind of due process -- that's the essence of who we are." He explained:

    I mean, you remember during the Nuremberg trials, part of what made us different was even after these Nazis had performed atrocities that no one had ever seen before, we still gave them a day in court and that taught the entire world about who we are but also the basic principles of rule of law. Now the Supreme Court upheld that principle yesterday.

    John Hinderaker and I derived some precepts for trial lawyers from the Nuremberg trial in "Lessons from the cross-examination of Hermann Goering." In the course of researching that article I was reminded that the Nuremberg trial was conducted before a military commission composed of representatives of the United States, Great Britain, France and the Soviet Union. The most prominent surviving Nazi leaders were brought for trial before the Nuremberg tribunal in late 1945. Winston Churchill had proposed, not unreasonably, that they be summarily shot. The victorious allies nevertheless subsequently agreed that they would be brought before a military commission to be convened pursuant to the London Agreement of August 8, 1945.

    In the Boumediene case, the Supreme Court disapproved of the system of military commissions Congress had adopted at the Supreme Court's urging. Obama to the contrary notwithstanding, the Nuremberg defendants' "day in court" occurred before the kind of tribunal the Supreme Court found constitutionally inadequate in Boumediene.

    The Nazi war criminals were given no access to American courts. Their rights were governed by the charter annexed to the London Agreement. Here is the fair trial provision of the charter:

    In order to ensure fair trial for the Defendants, the following procedure shall be followed:

    (a) The Indictment shall include full particulars specifying in detail the charges against the Defendants. A copy of the Indictment and of all the documents lodged with the Indictment, translated into a language which he understands, shall be furnished to the Defendant at reasonable time before the Trial.

    (b) During any preliminary examination or trial of a Defendant he will have the right to give any explanation relevant to the charges made against him.

    (c) A preliminary examination of a Defendant and his Trial shall be conducted in, or translated into, a language which the Defendant understands.

    (d) A Defendant shall have the right to conduct his own defense before the Tribunal or to have the assistance of Counsel.

    (e) A Defendant shall have the right through himself or through his Counsel to present evidence at the Trial in support of his defense, and to cross-examine any witness called by the Prosecution.

    The charter provision on the appeal rights of the Nuremberg defendants was even shorter and sweeter. There were no appeal rights. Article 26 provided: "The judgment of the Tribunal as to the guilt or the innocence of any Defendant shall give the reasons on which it is based, and shall be final and not subject to review."

    In short, the procedural protections afforded the Guantanamo detainees under the statute before the Supreme Court in Boumediene substantially exceeded those accorded the Nuremberg defendants. Obama's unfavorable comparison of the legal treatment of the Guantanamo detainees with that of the Nuremberg defendants suggests that he did not know what he was talking about.

    The revised system of military commissions now applicable to the Guantanamo detainees affords Khalid Sheikh Mohammed et al. -- the perpetrators of 9/11 -- all the protections to which American law entitles them. Now Obama -- to whom the decision must be attributable, regardless of the pretense that the buck stops with Eric Holder -- has chosen to bring KSM et al. to federal court in New York for a civilian trial as though he and his colleagues were common criminals. Why? Doing so carries with it certain necessary consequences and obvious risks that have already been the subject of informed comment:

    1. Obama confuses the commission of crimes with acts of war. The 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon constituted acts of war.

    2. Obama cloaks KSM et al. with all the constitutional protections to which American citizens are entitled under the United States Constitution.

    3. Obama affords KSM et al. a public forum for the waging of their war by other means.

    4. Those who apprehended and detained KSM et al. treated them as enemy combatants from whom valuable intelligence was sought and received. Trying them in federal court creates otherwise unnecessary issues regarding the admissibility of this evidence and provides them another avenue of attack on those defending the United states against them.

    5. The treatment of evidence in connection with the trial raises a serious threat that national security will be compromised.

    6. The trial of KSM et al. in New York by itself raises severe security risks.

    Given the availability of military commissions to try KSM et al., one asks why Obama has chosen to bring them to trial in federal court in New York. One searches Saturday's Washington Post story on the decision in vain for an explanation.

    No consideration of justice, history or tradition weighs in favor of treating KSM et al. as criminal defendants. Against the predictable negative risks and negative consequences, advocates of Obama's decision offer airy considerations of public relations. It is hard to take any professed rationale of a civilian trial seriously.

    Judging Obama's treatment of KSM et al. by its predictable effects rather than its apparent intentions, one arrives at a harsh conclusion. If Obama sought to subvert fundamental American institutions or to confuse the understanding of the American people -- upon both of which America's future depends -- he would proceed as announced.

    JOHN adds: On our radio show yesterday, Andy McCarthy proposed an explanation that amplifies on Scott's last paragraph. He suggested that the Obama administration views KSM et al. as its allies (my paraphrase) in its war against the Bush administration. Obama expects them to make their treatment by the Bush administration, real and imagined, the centerpiece of their defense, with the possible result that Bush, Cheney, and others may be indicted as war criminals by European countries or international courts, thereby satisfying the far left of the Democratic Party, which Obama represents.
    I'll post a podcast of the interview when it's available.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    Why not? Worried that the Constitution isn't up to the task of trying terrorists? Tell that to the plotters and actors in the first WTC bombing who are still sitting behind bars in US prisons.

    I find your lack of faith disturbing.
    Fascism has come to America, wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross. His name is Trump.
    War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. - George Orwell...The New GOP motto.

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    Are criminals usually tried at the general area of the crime? Do you not trust the American justice system?

    I have seen suggestions and comments that the terrorists should simply be executed without a trial. Many have been in agreement that they don't deserve a trial.
    Wouldn't that lower the U.S. to the level of a terrorist nation?

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    Show circus trial. Even Glenn Greenwald agrees and doesn't think getting back at Bush is worth this. But you guys just keep it up.

    Tell me, if these folks walk or are not allowed to even if acquitted, (Greenwald's contention), how are you going to feel about the justice system then?

    http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...fore-tribunals

    140+ 9/11 victims' families: Bring suspects before tribunals
    By Tony Romm - 11/05/09 01:10 PM ET
    More than 140 survivors of those killed on Sept. 11 are now pining Senate lawmakers to keep the attack's suspected planners out of federal courts.

    In a letter to the chamber, sent on Thursday, the families urge lawmakers to support Sen. Lindsey Graham's (R-S.C.) amendment, which would essentially ensure that the terror suspects would be tried instead before military tribunals.

    "We adamantly oppose prosecuting the 9/11 conspirators in Article III courts, which would provide them with the very rights that may make it possible for them to escape the justice which they so richly deserve," the victims wrote. "We believe that military commissions, which have a long and honorable history in this country dating back to the Revolutionary War, are the appropriate legal forum for the individuals who declared war on America."...
    Daniel Pearl's family, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/1..._n_358153.html

    The mother and father of slain Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl are disappointed with the federal government's decision to try Pearl's professed killer and Guantanamo detainee Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in New York City, according to The Hill.

    Pearl's father, Judea Pearl, told the New York Post that the Justice Department's decision made him "sick to the stomach."

    The foundation started by Pearl's parents, Ruth and Judea Pearl, released a statement to The Hill Saturday night, explaining their disappointment. The Hill:

    We are respectful of the legal process, but believe that giving confessed terrorists a worldwide platform to publicize their ideology sends the wrong message to potential terrorists...
    The Pearl family is not the first to object to the federal trial for Guantanamo detainees. The Washington Post has written that a public trial could be the "perfect arena" for smug Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's huge ego. And that a trial for the "9/11 mastermind" could provide him with "the attention he craves."

    Pearl was beheaded in 2002, after he was kidnapped in Pakistan. He left behind a wife, Mariane, and young son, Adam Daniel, who was born three months after Pearl's murder. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confessed to killing Pearl in 2007.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    I think Obama is trying to put a "face" on to other nations by bringing them away from military tribunals to the American justice system.

    I am 100% against any terrorists being on American soil, but am unafraid of them being put on trial in NYC. Personally, I can't fathom any judge or jury not giving them at least 3000 life sentences, if not death.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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    Dubya once promised that the 9-11 criminals would be captured and brought to justice.
    When Saddam was captured, he was put on trial in Iraq. It was a show trial.
    What kind of "justice" do you want? Any trial of this magnitude is going to be a "show trial."
    High profile murderers are put on trial on a regular basis. Some (like OJ Simpson) are acquitted. Others (like Tim McVey) are not.

    What makes this trial any different than, say, the DC Sniper? The crime was committed in Manhattan. The original trial venue should be Manhattan.
    Though I am sure there will be a change of venue request.

    Are military tribunals for military criminals? Like the Fort Hood murderer?

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    I think Obama and Holder are using these trials to appeal to the left, especially because of Afghanistan. This will be a circus of jihad by court, with Bush administration turned into defendant-without representation.
    Last edited by Kathianne; 11-17-2009 at 06:31 AM.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    Looks like I'm not the only one that thinks this is a huge mistake:

    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...ilitary-court/

    CNN Poll: Americans want KSM tried in military court
    Posted: November 16th, 2009 04:06 PM ET
    Washington (CNN) – Two-thirds of Americans disagree with the Obama administration's decision to try Khalid Sheik Mohammed in a civilian court rather than a military court, according to a new national poll.

    But six in 10 people questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey released Monday say that the alleged mastermind of the 9/11 attacks should be tried in the United States, as the administration plans to do, rather than at a U.S. facility in another country.

    The poll indicates that 64 percent believe Mohammed should be tried in military court, with 34 percent suggesting that he face trial in civilian court. Six in 10 people questioned say Mohammed should be tried stateside, with 37 percent calling for the trial to take place at a U.S. facility in another country.

    "The decision to bring Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in front of a civilian court is universally unpopular - even a majority of Democrats and liberals say that he should be tried by military authorities," says CNN Polling Director Keating Holland. "Despite that, most Americans say that he will get a fair trial in the U.S."...


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    Hmmm...

    http://wcbstv.com/politics/911.trial...2.1316155.html

    Paterson Rips White House For NYC 9/11 Trial
    New York Governor Says Trying Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, 4 Others In New York 'A Decision I Would Not Have Made'
    Reporting
    Marcia Kramer NEW YORK (CBS) ―

    AP

    Gov. David Paterson openly criticized the White House on Monday, saying he thought it was a terrible idea to move alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and four other suspected terrorists to New York for trial.

    "This is not a decision that I would have made. I think terrorism isn't just attack, it's anxiety and I think you feel the anxiety and frustration of New Yorkers who took the bullet for the rest of the country," he said.

    Paterson's comments break with Democrats, who generally support the President's decision....
    Seems Hillary is trying to go for Obama, but doesn't quite make it:

    <object width="518" height="419"><param name="movie" value="http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/eyeblast.swf?v=GdqG8zuz4z" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/eyeblast.swf?v=GdqG8zuz4z" allowfullscreen="true" width="518" height="419" /></object>


    It seems that Obama et al, never consulted with NY:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_c...stermind_.html

    and here:

    http://jammiewearingfool.blogspot.co...have-made.html


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    Quote Originally Posted by gabosaurus View Post
    Dubya once promised that the 9-11 criminals would be captured and brought to justice.
    When Saddam was captured, he was put on trial in Iraq. It was a show trial.
    What kind of "justice" do you want? Any trial of this magnitude is going to be a "show trial."
    High profile murderers are put on trial on a regular basis. Some (like OJ Simpson) are acquitted. Others (like Tim McVey) are not.

    What makes this trial any different than, say, the DC Sniper? The crime was committed in Manhattan. The original trial venue should be Manhattan.
    Though I am sure there will be a change of venue request.

    Are military tribunals for military criminals? Like the Fort Hood murderer?
    This guy is not just a criminal IMO, and should not stand trial in a civilized court room, there is nothing civilized about him , OJ was acquitted cause of where the trial was held, and there was a lot of talk of moving it before the trial and having it there was what most blamed him walking on

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    I think Obama and Holder are using these trials to appeal to the left, especially because of Afghanistan. This will be a circus of jihad by court, with Bush administration turned into defendant-without representation.
    Did you ever, even for a moment, think that the trial was moved to Manhattan because Article 3; Section 2 of the US Constitution states:

    <blockquote>The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed.</blockquote>

    That being said, all GITMO detainees should have a trial by jury, rather than a military tribunal. Some will be acquitted. Charges against some will be dismissed as the evidence against them was obtained through torture...sorry, "harsh interrogation". Others will be found guilty.

    Of course, there is always the very real possibility that evidence leading all the way to the Bush Oval Office about orders for torture, and other violations of US and international law by the Bush administration would be starkly revealed. Can't say I wouldn't shed any tears over that.

    Placing these people in criminal courts, as opposed to military courts, reduces them to the stature of common criminals rather than brave soldiers fighting against the "great Satan".

    Finally, as in so many other areas, the Obama administration is only taking half-measures. Bringing only some of the detainees into the criminal courts is insufficient. If <i>habeas corpus</i> is to remain a vital cornerstone of the US judicial system, ALL of the GITMO detainees must have their day before a jury...there to be exonerated or convicted.
    Last edited by bullypulpit; 11-18-2009 at 12:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullypulpit View Post
    Did you ever, even for a moment, think that the trial was moved to Manhattan because Article 3; Section 2 of the US Constitution states:

    <blockquote>The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed.</blockquote>

    That being said, all GITMO detainees should have a trial by jury, rather than a military tribunal. Some will be acquitted. Charges against some will be dismissed as the evidence against them was obtained through torture...sorry, "harsh interrogation". Others will be found guilty.

    Of course, there is always the very real possibility that evidence leading all the way to the Bush Oval Office about orders for torture, and other violations of US and international law by the Bush administration would be starkly revealed. Can't say I wouldn't shed any tears over that.

    Placing these people in criminal courts, as opposed to military courts, reduces them to the stature of common criminals rather than brave soldiers fighting against the "great Satan".

    Finally, as in so many other areas, the Obama administration is only taking half-measures. Bringing only some of the detainees into the criminal courts is insufficient. If <i>habeas corpus</i> is to remain a vital cornerstone of the US judicial system, ALL of the GITMO detainees must have their day before a jury...there to be exonerated or convicted.
    Nope. I'm more interested in Art I Sec 8. Why undo over 200 years of military and civil laws.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    Quote Originally Posted by gabosaurus View Post
    Dubya once promised that the 9-11 criminals would be captured and brought to justice.
    When Saddam was captured, he was put on trial in Iraq. It was a show trial.
    What kind of "justice" do you want? Any trial of this magnitude is going to be a "show trial."
    High profile murderers are put on trial on a regular basis. Some (like OJ Simpson) are acquitted. Others (like Tim McVey) are not.

    What makes this trial any different than, say, the DC Sniper? The crime was committed in Manhattan. The original trial venue should be Manhattan.
    Though I am sure there will be a change of venue request.

    Are military tribunals for military criminals? Like the Fort Hood murderer?
    These are enemy combatants, NOT American Citizens. They have procedures for that. Its not that they won't get a trial. They will. they just won't get the same rights as American Citizens get. They will get the rights that enemy combatants get under the constitution.
    "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” – Winston Churchill

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    Quote Originally Posted by bullypulpit View Post
    Placing these people in criminal courts, as opposed to military courts, reduces them to the stature of common criminals rather than brave soldiers fighting against the "great Satan".
    Do you think they care? They laugh at our pathetic system while using it to their advantage. Just because we try them as common criminals instead of enemy combatants does not mean that they feel their mission was less successful.

    The problem we face is that the current administration again feels that we are not at war while the enemy has already declared it as such.
    "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” – Winston Churchill

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    9/11 wasn't a "crime", it was an act of war. (Or did you think the Germans' objections to our crossing the Rhine and invading their country in 1944, were based solely on the fact that we violated their laws against trespassing?) And the 9/11 perpetrators we captured should be treated the way combatants in war are always treated: Held without trial indefinitely, until the conflict is over.

    Well, there is an extenuating circumstance. The Geneva Convention accords state that, if a combatant is found making war on a country without wearing a uniform to distinguish himself from noncombatant civilians, and especially if he is wearing civilians clothes in a deliberate attempt to hide among civilians and cause their deaths by atttracting enemy fire, he is to be treated as a spy. Spies are to be given field courts-martial, lined up against a wall, and summarily shot.

    Far as I know, these terrorists never signed or agreed to the Geneva Accords. They certainly don't obey it. So, they are not subject to its usually-benevolent provisions. But I'd be happy to make an exception in their case.

    Why are the terrorists getting a public, civilian trial?

    To provide them a stage for a show trial, of course, where they can publicly berate the Bush administration, demand (and get) evidence formerly protected by U.S. govt secrecy rules, and make speeches for days on end about the horrors of having water poured on them and having to wear their underwear over their heads.

    Plus the opportunity to be able to drag U.S. officers and troops from their posts in Iraq, Afghanistan etc., into the courtroom in NYC for "testimony", and otherwise screw up our military in any other way they can find.

    What other reasons could the Obama administration have for pretending terrorists and enemy spies captured during war, are civilian "criminals"?
    Last edited by Little-Acorn; 11-18-2009 at 03:05 PM.
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