Scores of Utah shelter animals used in research

[SassyLady]

I wish I could understand why vegans or vegetarians are ok with abortion. I feel like if they are against animals dying it makes sense they should be against babies dying, afterall if a baby is not aborted and allowed to take natures course it is born a human being, so why wouldnt that be as important as animal rights. But I guess some people value animals more and I value humans more.

I wonder the same things myself Chloe.

[SassyLady]

Likewise, do what you feel is right, but when you think the OP is wrong i fail to see how you think eating animal flesh is right, but you've made it clear you wish not to continue, laters.

The OP is not about raising animals for human consumption.....it is about using abandoned pets for research. One can disagree with this issue and still feel eating farm animals is appropriate.

You are the one that took the giant leap and accused people that eat animal flesh as not being upset about the use of pets for research.

Two separate issues.

[HogTrash]

I wonder the same things myself Chloe.

Whoever claimed the workings of the liberal mind was rational?

[Noir]

@chloe

I did start writting a reply, but i'm shattered so i'm gonna pop for the night, and so will make my reply tomorrow morn.

[chloe]

@chloe

I did start writting a reply, but i'm shattered so i'm gonna pop for the night, and so will make my reply tomorrow morn.

I'm thinking shattered means tired, I hope you are just busy and didn't come down with a cold. Get caught up on your rest then

[Abbey Marie]

=/
Make you sick ta think about it,

Yup. That about sums it up.

And no, I don't eat cows (adults or calves), pigs, lambs, deer, etc., etc. I do eat fish and shellfish.

[Noir]

Yup. That about sums it up.

And no, I don't eat cows (adults or calves), pigs, lambs, deer, etc., etc. I do eat fish and shellfish.

Awk Abbey dear, you're a Pescetarian? I understand you even less that the full on meat eaters,

[Jeff]

Sweet jezy crezy, you honestly have the gaul to suggest that you think animals should be treated with respect? Is that after you slit their throats? or after you pull out their guts? or after you eat their flesh?

Suggesting that you have respect for creatures that you will happily murder and eat is akin to a rapist having respect for his victims, i.e. maybe in their own twisted mind, but that is not the kind of mind from which you should take a fair judgement i'm sure you'd agree.

I do not run about flapping my hands, meat eaters and murderers exist and they always will. The fact that i happened to point how the hypocrisy of reactions could hardly be considered an over-reaction by any stretch of the imagination

I'm not trying to make you feel guilty about anything, you were the one that decided you feel bad about the story in the OP, i just find it stupendous that you can not then relate the same thoughts to other aspects of your life,

Noir I have a question, what do you think of Abortion ?

[Noir]

Noir I have a question, what do you think of Abortion ?

Abortion is an ultra complex issue, and one which i can't fall one way or the other on. At its simpliest level i am totally against it, abortion should not be a form of birth control. Anyone who has sex in anyway must accept the consequences that come with it.
However once it becomes more complex, i.e. rape cases ect then i really am not sure, and so for the moment i would side with the rights of the woman not to carry her rapists baby,

[Jeff]

Abortion is an ultra complex issue, and one which i can't fall one way or the other on. At its simpliest level i am totally against it, abortion should not be a form of birth control. Anyone who has sex in anyway must accept the consequences that come with it.
However once it becomes more complex, i.e. rape cases ect then i really am not sure, and so for the moment i would side with the rights of the woman not to carry her rapists baby,

My hats off to ya Noir , I feel the same way

I asked cause although I respect your views on eating meat I have spoke to and have a few friends that feel eating meat is murdering a animal , but abortion is ok, to me that should be the definition of hypocrite

[Noir]

Sorry this has taken an age for me to reply to, but better late than never,

I am not sure whether you are looking for a sincere answer. But I will give you mine, I believe alot of things humans do in life is wrong. In my own personal history I have made choices that I knew was wrong but did it anyway. For instance when I did drugs and drank on the job, and lied to people I loved and stole from people I loved, I knew it was wrong but at the time I was not able to stop myself, I had an addiction that I didn't want to stop, the pain for me was not bad enough to stop even though it hurt people I loved. Finally at some point in my life I had my own awakening so to speak and quit all the drugs n drinking.

Well i'm glad you came to sense, but this whole thing really baffles me,

I feel bad about eating meat and I have periodically tried to stop eating it, but much like drugs I find it is hard for me to stop wanting meat on occasion, I crave it.

You don't have to stop wanting meat, that is uncontrollable, like personally i never want it, but i know other veggies who do every now and then, the key is not letting your wants rule your life.

While it doesnt get me high and its not a necessity I was raised all my life on meat and I like the taste of it.I find my choice selfish and I feel bad about it, but I have not been able to stop eating it.

Again this baffles me, you know its wrong, but you just don't care enough to do anything about it? Thats really quite a shocking stance in my opinion.

What I have come to understand about myself is that no matter how bad I feel about something, that I won't change my own behavior or actions until I'm ready to and ready does not come to me instantly.

I would of thought the knowlegde of the wrong-doing would give you will enough to change, alas not it seems.

I could force myself to do it, but it would be ingenuine because my frame of mind cares more about my what my appetite desires then an animals life. I am not justifying myself I am explaining to you in an honest way why i have not made a change even though i feel bad about it.

Well honest it may be, but when you say that you know something is wrong, but you couldn't be bothered doing anything about it i would really wonder where your mindset is at.

I wish I could understand why vegans or vegetarians are ok with abortion. I feel like if they are against animals dying it makes sense they should be against babies dying, afterall if a baby is not aborted and allowed to take natures course it is born a human being, so why wouldnt that be as important as animal rights. But I guess some people value animals more and I value humans more.

Well i've made my views on abortion clear over the course of this and other topics, i would guess that those who argue for abortion but are veggies would centre their debate on the fact that you are not aborting a baby, but a grouping of cells that will become a baby, but thats their arugment, not mine.

And i value human lives more than an animals anyday, that however does not mean we can murder them at will because we feel a little peckish.

[Noir]

My hats off to ya Noir , I feel the same way

I asked cause although I respect your views on eating meat I have spoke to and have a few friends that feel eating meat is murdering a animal , but abortion is ok, to me that should be the definition of hypocrite

Indeedy i find it hard to make sense of such logic,

However i would guess they'd argue that a ball of cells has no feelings or thoughts ect, whenever an animal getting its throat slit does. Ergo for comparison you would have to ask if they find animal abortions acceptable. Though this is all quiet a specific line of thought to have to follow.

[chloe]

Sorry this has taken an age for me to reply to, but better late than never,



Well i'm glad you came to sense, but this whole thing really baffles me,




You don't have to stop wanting meat, that is uncontrollable, like personally i never want it, but i know other veggies who do every now and then, the key is not letting your wants rule your life.

And i value human lives more than an animals anyday, that however does not mean we can murder them at will because we feel a little peckish.

To be honest with you, your response is very disappointing, it seems pretty judgemental, even though I asked you not to be. I don't know why the nature of addiction would be something of a hard concept for you to understand, but I know I have heard that once some animals have tasted blood they crave it, my point on addiction was you don't make a life change until you are ready, and when I am I will. Were you raised a vegetarian? You said your friends have craved it but basically don't give in, oh so at some point they have been meat eaters and made a life changing decision. hmm, they must have been ready to do it, is that baffling? People change when they want to and not sooner. Usually once they make up there mind to be determined they stick with it.As fas as abortion, no vegetarians and vegans should not support it, dont support eating eggs dont support killing human babies. Additionally this excerpt from the abortion review folks shows how their intetion to play down killing a baby is for the benefit of science research , they know damn well it is a baby and that if it is not aborted it is born a baby.

Abortion and fetal tissue donation
Naomi Pfeffer raised issues around fetal tissue and the potential for tissue from aborted fetuses to be used in stem cell research.
Professor Pfeffer argued that women having an abortion should be approached to donate fetal material medical research. She also took the opportunity to outline the findings of small scale focus group research undertaken into the views of women who have had abortions about donating fetal tissue. Many began with the view that donation could be a positive thing to come out of their unintended pregnancy - however, concerns were quickly raised. One concern was that, as stated by the Polkinghorne guidelines, women are not allowed to know in detail what the tissue they donate would be used for. According to Pfeffer, some women felt that this would be important in their decision whether to donate, as they felt a ‘duty of care’ to the fetus.
Guidance in this area was last updated when the Polkinghorne guidelines were published in 1989. The Department of Health recognised the need to update this guidance in 2004 but as yet there have been no moves to update it. Professor Pfeffer called for a full review, public discussion and regulatory guidance in order to address the concerns clinicians feel about asking women having an abortion about fetal tissue donation, and assist researchers who need such tissue in order to carry out medical research.


http://www.abortionreview.org/index....e/article/466/

[Noir]

To be honest with you, your response is very disappointing, it seems pretty judgemental even though I asked you not to be.

As i have said, you were the one that did the judging, when you said that you were being selfish ect.

I don't know why the nature of addiction would be something of a hard concept for you to understand,

Because at the end of the day addiction is a choice, and you either give in or you don't. I memo when i first meet my last girlfriend, she was ruining her life through drugs, mainly Alcohol, Cigarettes and Cannabis. Cigs she consumed daily, and Alcohol & Cannabis 2-3 days a week. In the 2 years that we were together she often brought up that she was craving one or another of them, and yet in those 2 years she did not get drunk, stonned or smoke a cig once. Because any time it was mentioned the choice was spelt out clearly, because thats all addictions are, choices. By giving into the addiction you are chosing to fail. I will also have it noted that in the past few months after we broke up she has started taking drugs again, and thus failed herself.

You may see this as harsh, the idea of failing, but life is allot more black and white than people try to pretend. At the end of the day you are not forced to do anything, you chose, words like addiction try to mask this, but addiction is just another choice.

but I know I have heard that once some animals have tasted blood they crave it, my point on addiction was you don't make a life change until you are ready, and when I am I will.

Fairplay, but don't blame the addiction.

Were you raised a vegetarian?

No.

You said your friends have craved it but basically don't give in, oh so at some point they have been meat eaters and made a life changing decision.

Indeedy they did.

hmm, they must have been ready to do it, is that baffling? People change when they want to and not sooner.

Speaking from my perspective, i was happy enough to eat meat when i was young and ignorant. Then i learned of what happens, how these poor animals are raised, some of which never see sunlight, and then slaughtered so we may savour the flavour of their murder. As soon as that was made clear to me there was no choice, or waiting to be ready. That was it. Maybe thats an odd way to go about it, but i can only think of it as perfectly natural,

Usually once they make up there mind to be determined they stick with it.As far as abortion, no vegetarians and vegans should not support it, dont support eating eggs dont support killing human babies. Additionally this excerpt from the abortion review folks shows how their intetion to play down killing a baby is for the benefit of science research , they know damn well it is a baby and that if it is not aborted it is born a baby.

Abortion and fetal tissue donation
Naomi Pfeffer raised issues around fetal tissue and the potential for tissue from aborted fetuses to be used in stem cell research.
Professor Pfeffer argued that women having an abortion should be approached to donate fetal material medical research. She also took the opportunity to outline the findings of small scale focus group research undertaken into the views of women who have had abortions about donating fetal tissue. Many began with the view that donation could be a positive thing to come out of their unintended pregnancy - however, concerns were quickly raised. One concern was that, as stated by the Polkinghorne guidelines, women are not allowed to know in detail what the tissue they donate would be used for. According to Pfeffer, some women felt that this would be important in their decision whether to donate, as they felt a ‘duty of care’ to the fetus.
Guidance in this area was last updated when the Polkinghorne guidelines were published in 1989. The Department of Health recognised the need to update this guidance in 2004 but as yet there have been no moves to update it. Professor Pfeffer called for a full review, public discussion and regulatory guidance in order to address the concerns clinicians feel about asking women having an abortion about fetal tissue donation, and assist researchers who need such tissue in order to carry out medical research.


http://www.abortionreview.org/index....e/article/466/

I know, i agree with you on this, again i am baffled that some people are veggie yet pro-choice, makes no sense to me.

[chloe]

As i have said, you were the one that did the judging, when you said that you were being selfish ect.



Because at the end of the day addiction is a choice, and you either give in or you don't. I memo when i first meet my last girlfriend, she was ruining her life through drugs, mainly Alcohol, Cigarettes and Cannabis. Cigs she consumed daily, and Alcohol & Cannabis 2-3 days a week. In the 2 years that we were together she often brought up that she was craving one or another of them, and yet in those 2 years she did not get drunk, stonned or smoke a cig once. Because any time it was mentioned the choice was spelt out clearly, because thats all addictions are, choices. By giving into the addiction you are chosing to fail. I will also have it noted that in the past few months after we broke up she has started taking drugs again, and thus failed herself.

You may see this as harsh, the idea of failing, but life is allot more black and white than people try to pretend. At the end of the day you are not forced to do anything, you chose, words like addiction try to mask this, but addiction is just another choice.

I have been sober a long time, and I understand addiction, in recovery we call people like you "normys" so I won't expect you to get it. In america we do have hormones and food addititives in meat & veggies, some studies say it is addictive, who knows. I won't quit eating meat until I am ready, at least Im willing to be open about the possibility of not consuming it, some people won't even consider the idea of it. Its good to know you dont want to kill human babies. Anyway I answered your question I cannot control that you didnt like my answer.