Christian faith: Calvinism is back

[darin]

I, too, was raised in the Calvinist style of religion .... hence my aversion to religion. I don't adhere to the premise that one man's (John Calvin) intepretation is gospel.

My major point of disagreement is that I don't believe "God" divided humans into two groups (the elected and the excluded) - basically I don't believe in predestination. I believe each one of us is responsible for our own salvation based upon our actions and choices in life. And each choice sends us down a different path with new options and choices to be made.

Of course he didn't. You're right on the money.

To understand how this works we have to make a couple assumptions. Firstly, God is outside of Time, and the constraints thereof. Because of that, there is no future or past where He is - it's one big Galactic NOW.

Okay then - To those God KNOWS will accept him (because he's all-knowing, because he's already there (at the end of things) right "now"), he's set into motion those events which will cause them to, or lead them to Him.

Get it? Because God is right there at the end of times, so to speak, he already knows who has accepted Him because he can see us. So - God works in our lives to bring to Him those people whom are already there where He is, outside of time.

It helps if you watch a lot of Science Fiction...But in my heart of hearts that's what scripture means to me. That's how it makes sense.

Now - the bible implies there will be those who elect not to choose Him.

It's written...."God is not WILLING that any should perish"

Now...if Calvinists are correct, that scripture is a big fat lie, or not accurate. Because - see - if GOD dictates who receives him, the verse might read "God will not allow any to perish" - because that's his will. Right? Make sense? The other choice is God IS willing that some should perish. One or the other.

[Noir]

God wants fellowship with his Creation. That's the marked difference.

In a kind of 'worship me or I'll send ya to ethernal damnation' fellowship?

[PostmodernProphet]

It's anti-christian in it's belief God forces himself upon people. (shrug). God is Love. Forcing one's desire upon others is not love. It's selfishness.

???....never heard that before....

In what book, chapter, and verse to we find the teachings of Calvin? TULIP is a debauched and foolish ideology.

/shrugs...I guess this one?....
http://www.vor.org/rbdisk/calvin/ci_html.htm

if GOD dictates who receives him

???...that isn't what Calvinism teaches....

In what book, chapter, and verse to we find the teachings of Calvin? TULIP is a debauched and foolish ideology.

this is "TULIP"....what is debauched about it?...

Five basic teachings...1) man is incapable of attaining righteousness on his own, 2) through Christ, righteousness is available to everyone, simply by accepting him as your Savior, 3) some will refuse to accept, and if they refuse they will not obtain righteousness, 4) the Holy Spirit seeks us out, he is actively engaged in confronting us with opportunities to choose, and 5) the Holy Spirit also preserves, he is actively engaged in protecting those who have chosen to believe from slipping backwards into disbelief...

[darin]

???...that isn't what Calvinism teaches....

Absolutely DOES. Teaches Man is UNABLE to accept God unless God 'allows' that person to.

[BoogyMan]

/shrugs...I guess this one?....
http://www.vor.org/rbdisk/calvin/ci_html.htm

I don't want Calvinist dogma, I want Bible book, chapter, and verse that you can show me to support Calvinism.

this is "TULIP"....what is debauched about it?...

No, Calvinism teaches very specifically......

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

Book, chapter and verse. Then lets talk.

[BoogyMan]

In a kind of 'worship me or I'll send ya to ethernal damnation' fellowship?

Do you know what fellowship is?

[chloe]

Of course he didn't. You're right on the money.

To understand how this works we have to make a couple assumptions. Firstly, God is outside of Time, and the constraints thereof. Because of that, there is no future or past where He is - it's one big Galactic NOW.

Okay then - To those God KNOWS will accept him (because he's all-knowing, because he's already there (at the end of things) right "now"), he's set into motion those events which will cause them to, or lead them to Him.

Get it? Because God is right there at the end of times, so to speak, he already knows who has accepted Him because he can see us. So - God works in our lives to bring to Him those people whom are already there where He is, outside of time.

It helps if you watch a lot of Science Fiction...But in my heart of hearts that's what scripture means to me. That's how it makes sense.

Now - the bible implies there will be those who elect not to choose Him.

It's written...."God is not WILLING that any should perish"

Now...if Calvinists are correct, that scripture is a big fat lie, or not accurate. Because - see - if GOD dictates who receives him, the verse might read "God will not allow any to perish" - because that's his will. Right? Make sense? The other choice is God IS willing that some should perish. One or the other.

So Calvinism is a religion and this is the belief it teaches. Thanks for clarifying I wasn't sure if you mean't people of that religion tend to misinterpret the religion or the religion itself isn't good.

[PostmodernProphet]

Absolutely DOES. Teaches Man is UNABLE to accept God unless God 'allows' that person to.

dude.....that is the most ridiculous analysis of Calvinism ever put into words......nobody could do anything that God didn't allow them to, but it's foolish to say that God doesn't "allow" someone to accept him.....

[PostmodernProphet]

I don't want Calvinist dogma, I want Bible book, chapter, and verse that you can show me to support Calvinism.

lol....Calvin's Institutes is what, 1400 pages?.....you want me to give you an analysis from scriptures supporting it?.....

No, Calvinism teaches very specifically......

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

and that is what I explained in my post....what is "debauched" about it....do you, for example believe that mankind IS able to attain righteousness by themselves?....

[PostmodernProphet]

So Calvinism is a religion and this is the belief it teaches.

no, it isn't the belief it teaches....I was raised in the Calvinist religion and got a masters in theology from a school named after John Calvin and I have never heard anything remotely similar to dmp's claim.....

[chloe]

no, it isn't the belief it teaches....I was raised in the Calvinist religion and got a masters in theology from a school named after John Calvin and I have never heard anything remotely similar to dmp's claim.....

Thanks PMP I wouldn't think it would be surging in our current society if it was a super hateful religion, but some religions are condeming like the one that protests military funerals so I wasn't 100% sure. The article says Calvinism is making a major comeback so it must have some attractive beliefs.

[SassyLady]

Calvinism to me advocates a capricious God......which I don't believe in. I don't believe God has already chosen anyone. I believe we are all given opportunities to achieve a higher level of existence and the choices we make determine where we spend eternity.

Calvinism is too depressing for me, which is why I decided that religion just doesn't work for me. I decided to be a good person because it makes me feel at peace with myself, and not because I'm trying to gain a seat in heaven. No matter how I may spend eternity, I know that what I do here and now is what really matters.

[darin]

dude.....that is the most ridiculous analysis of Calvinism ever put into words......nobody could do anything that God didn't allow them to, but it's foolish to say that God doesn't "allow" someone to accept him.....

...but it's calvinism. (shrug) The very root of Cavlin's theory is Man CAN NOT Choose God unless God decides to make that happen. Calvin grossly mis-understood and confused pre-knowledge and pre-destined. Truth is, our free-will allows us to do many things counter to His will.

In a kind of 'worship me or I'll send ya to ethernal damnation' fellowship?

No, not really.

[PostmodernProphet]

Calvin grossly mis-understood and confused pre-knowledge and pre-destined. Truth is, our free-will allows us to do many things counter to His will.

??....actually, he understood it, you don't.....of course our free will allows us to counter God's will.....do you think sin is God's will?.....your error regarding predestination is thinking that God's knowledge of our choice CAUSES our choice.....that could only be true if we shared God's knowledge....

let's say, for example, that if you choose to go to work tomorrow using a slightly more roundabout, but scenic route, that you will be broadsided by a driver blowing through a stoplight and you will die.......God knows that......does the fact that God knows this cause you to decide anything differently about which route to take to work?......no.....because God knows it, you don't.....you freely choose which route to take.....Now, let's say God doesn't want you dead this week because he has a use for you....."Dang, why didn't the alarm clock go off, now I'm going to be late for work"....or "Why do I have to have a flat tire now!"......maybe it even goes so far as your wife saying "I had a strange dream last night, don't go to work today".......now you could still blow off all those things, take the scenic route and die.....it's your choice....

now, substitute believing in God for driving to work.....God knows what you are going to choose.....he knows what path you followed and what steps you had to encounter before you made that decision.....He's prepared to put all those steps in place for you......but you are still the one who has to make that choice.......for others, God is aware that no matter what steps he places for them, they are going to repeatedly make the wrong choices.....that doesn't mean he's making the choices for them......

[BoogyMan]

lol....Calvin's Institutes is what, 1400 pages?.....you want me to give you an analysis from scriptures supporting it?.....

If you cannot, why do you support it? God needs no substitutes for His word.

and that is what I explained in my post....what is "debauched" about it....do you, for example believe that mankind IS able to attain righteousness by themselves?....

Lets take this one letter at a time. We will start with the "T" in tulip which stands for Calvin's teaching of "total hereditary depravity." This is the idea of sin that is passed down from father to son, generation after generation, because of the sin of Adam.

The bible quite handily refutes this debauched teaching:
1. Sin is breaking God’s Law I John 3:4
2. Sin is not passed on Ezekiel 18:20
3. You are pure until you sin Ezekiel 28:15
4. Man causes himself to be a sinner Ecclesiastes 7:29 “Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.”
5. Sin has do be done by someone realizing right and wrong James 4:17 “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
6. Can a baby sin? God says that we are to become as these little children not little sinners Matthew 18:3.