Christian faith: Calvinism is back

[Noir]

No, not really.

So what kind of fellowship is it?

[PostmodernProphet]

If you cannot, why do you support it? God needs no substitutes for His word.

Calvin's Institutes provides it's own scriptural support....that's what the Institues are, an examination of supporting scripture....I see no need to devote ten years of my life going over 1400 pages of theology just to explain it to you....

Lets take this one letter at a time. We will start with the "T" in tulip which stands for Calvin's teaching of "total hereditary depravity."

???....no it doesn't....there is no "hereditary" involved....

Total Depravity (Total Inability)

Total Depravity is probably the most misunderstood tenet of Calvinism. When Calvinists speak of humans as "totally depraved," they are making an extensive, rather than an intensive statement. The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will. Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being.

http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/

This is the idea of sin that is passed down from father to son, generation after generation, because of the sin of Adam.

such would probably be the case if we WERE talking about an hereditary sinfulness, but since that came from somewhere besides Calvinism it isn't actually relevant to this debate...

1. Sin is breaking God’s Law I John 3:4
2. Sin is not passed on Ezekiel 18:20
3. You are pure until you sin Ezekiel 28:15
4. Man causes himself to be a sinner Ecclesiastes 7:29 “Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.”
5. Sin has do be done by someone realizing right and wrong James 4:17 “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
6. Can a baby sin? God says that we are to become as these little children not little sinners Matthew 18:3.

I see nothing to argue about here.....nothing you posted is contrary to Calvinism....

[PostmodernProphet]

Mingled vanity and pride appear in this, that when miserable men do seek after God, instead of ascending higher than themselves as they ought to do, they measure him by their own carnal stupidity, and neglecting solid inquiry, fly off to indulge their curiosity in vain speculation. (Inst. 1.4.1)

[SassyLady]

??..do you think sin is God's will?

Yes....all that is was created by God and why would God create something that was not of his will? God created sin in order to provide an environment of choice. If God had not created sin how would we be in a state of choice at any time?

.....your error regarding predestination is thinking that God's knowledge of our choice CAUSES our choice.....that could only be true if we shared God's knowledge....

let's say, for example, that if you choose to go to work tomorrow using a slightly more roundabout, but scenic route, that you will be broadsided by a driver blowing through a stoplight and you will die.......God knows that......does the fact that God knows this cause you to decide anything differently about which route to take to work?......no.....because God knows it, you don't.....you freely choose which route to take.....Now, let's say God doesn't want you dead this week because he has a use for you....."Dang, why didn't the alarm clock go off, now I'm going to be late for work"....or "Why do I have to have a flat tire now!"......maybe it even goes so far as your wife saying "I had a strange dream last night, don't go to work today".......now you could still blow off all those things, take the scenic route and die.....it's your choice....

So what you are saying is that if God has something else planned for us next week God can "influence" our choices by causing the alarm clock to not go off, cause a flat tire, or influence the wife's dreams, etc. How is that not some form of manipulation of destiny?

now, substitute believing in God for driving to work.....God knows what you are going to choose.....he knows what path you followed and what steps you had to encounter before you made that decision.....He's prepared to put all those steps in place for you......but you are still the one who has to make that choice.......for others, God is aware that no matter what steps he places for them, they are going to repeatedly make the wrong choices.....that doesn't mean he's making the choices for them......

So, if God knows which path I am going to choose, because God already has knowledge of the choices I will make, why does God even bother with putting the steps there?

See, this is where the whole argument falls apart for me. I make the choices, but only based upon whatever choices God puts in front of me, and that is based upon what path God already knows I am going down. How is that free will.....God knows and is just providing the nudges to keep me on the path he already knows I am following???


Goodness, how exhausting for God to be so involved in all these souls and all the complexities of decisions made very day.....

[BoogyMan]

Calvin's Institutes provides it's own scriptural support....that's what the Institues are, an examination of supporting scripture....I see no need to devote ten years of my life going over 1400 pages of theology just to explain it to you....

???....no it doesn't....there is no "hereditary" involved....

http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/

such would probably be the case if we WERE talking about an hereditary sinfulness, but since that came from somewhere besides Calvinism it isn't actually relevant to this debate...


I see nothing to argue about here.....nothing you posted is contrary to Calvinism....

My friend, if you cannot even accept the FACT that TULIP is a tenant of Calvinism you are too far gone to see the truth, and that was after a complete and utter destruction of just the first of the tenants of Calvinism.

[PostmodernProphet]

[QUOTE=mrskurtsprincess;418946]Yes....all that is was created by God and why would God create something that was not of his will? God created sin in order to provide an environment of choice. If God had not created sin how would we be in a state of choice at any time?
[quote]
no, God did not create sin so we could make a choice.....sin is the act of making a bad choice.....it doesn't exist until we make the choice of disobedience.......

So what you are saying is that if God has something else planned for us next week God can "influence" our choices by causing the alarm clock to not go off, cause a flat tire, or influence the wife's dreams, etc. How is that not some form of manipulation of destiny?

because you are still free to reject that influence....God may have given you a million opportunities to find reason to believe in him, but if you continue to refuse because that is your choice, then you have still chosen that destiny.....by the way, Calvinists call such a refusal the denial of the Holy Spirit....it is considered to be the one unpardonable sin......

So, if God knows which path I am going to choose, because God already has knowledge of the choices I will make, why does God even bother with putting the steps there?

the steps may be the catalyst that causes you to make the right choice....perhaps it's a combination of something your grandmother said to you thirty years ago with something you experience today....

See, this is where the whole argument falls apart for me. I make the choices, but only based upon whatever choices God puts in front of me, and that is based upon what path God already knows I am going down. How is that free will.....God knows and is just providing the nudges to keep me on the path he already knows I am following???

because you are making the choices without sharing God's knowledge.....each choice is made upon evidence that is fresh to you and measured by your own judgment and will....a "nudge" is something you know you "ought" to do.....you may still choose to be disobedient...

Goodness, how exhausting for God to be so involved in all these souls and all the complexities of decisions made very day.....

I'm sure he created Tahiti just so he could have a place to take a break....

[PostmodernProphet]

My friend, if you cannot even accept the FACT that TULIP is a tenant of Calvinism you are too far gone to see the truth, and that was after a complete and utter destruction of just the first of the tenants of Calvinism.

???...TULIP is a teaching of Calvinism.....you are incorrect about what TULIP is.....I have provided you with a more accurate statement of it twice, first in my own words, the second in Calvin's.....are you implying that you have completely and utterly destroyed it by inserting into it a word which it does not contain?.......if so, that is a rather silly method of debate....

first of all, what is your authority for claiming that the word "hereditary" is included in the "T" of TULIP?......

[BoogyMan]

???...TULIP is a teaching of Calvinism.....you are incorrect about what TULIP is.....I have provided you with a more accurate statement of it twice, first in my own words, the second in Calvin's.....are you implying that you have completely and utterly destroyed it by inserting into it a word which it does not contain?.......if so, that is a rather silly method of debate....

first of all, what is your authority for claiming that the word "hereditary" is included in the "T" of TULIP?......

The word hereditary points to the fact that the "total depravity" aspect as taught is hereditary in nature. A false assertion that man is totally depraved at birth or born with the stain of sin already in place.

You are simply wrong.

[revelarts]

Here's one of the things just from a , i guess, a philosophical pov. When you really get down to ultimate causations, you end up with some uncomfortable paradoxs no matter which way you go. For believers if you don't nuance your positions out. you end up with at least 2 views neither completely explainable to anyones satisfaction that doesn't accept God's ultimate goodness.

For those that don't like the idea that God's "chosen us in him before the foundation of the world" Ephesians 1:4

OK what do you think of man. You keep saying people can choose any time they want to do good or evil to believe or not to believe.

Do you think that people's heart start generally in the middle. or do you thinks peoples hearts are as the scripture says Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? If that verse is true. what your saying is that men who are desperately wicked are asked by God to make a choice for good under there own power against their nature, without even any push or nudge from God to do so.
How fair is that?
A little like asking a barracuda to love vegetables isn't it? Or asking a handicapped man to run, or as Calvinism teaches asking a dead man to live.

[Noir]

@mrskurtsprincess

Would rep if I could.

[PostmodernProphet]

The word hereditary points to the fact that the "total depravity" aspect as taught is hereditary in nature.

I have already shown you to be wrong.....I have to concede it's an interesting approach to debate.....pretend someone believes something ridiculous, prove it ridiculous, then proclaim victory......not very effective when you run up against someone who knows you are wrong, mind you....but interesting none the less....

[BoogyMan]

I have already shown you to be wrong.....I have to concede it's an interesting approach to debate.....pretend someone believes something ridiculous, prove it ridiculous, then proclaim victory......not very effective when you run up against someone who knows you are wrong, mind you....but interesting none the less....

I destroyed your position with only a superficial view of the first tenant of Calvinism. Defend it as you will, my friend, you cannot defend it scripturally, and therefore there is no defense for it at all.

Lets also now look at the U in tulip: Unconditional Election.

Unconditional election is the Calvinist teaching that before God created the world, he chose to save some people according to his own purposes and apart from any conditions related to those persons.

A few simple points will refute this.

1. God is no respecter of persons Acts 10:34, Romans 2:11, and I Peter 1:17
2. If Christians are predestined why worry about the Devil I Peter 5:8?
3. If Christians could not do anything to change their condition and election then Romans 3:23 and 6:23 do not apply.

[darin]

??....actually, he understood it, you don't.....of course our free will allows us to counter God's will.....do you think sin is God's will?.....your error regarding predestination is thinking that God's knowledge of our choice CAUSES our choice.....that could only be true if we shared God's knowledge....

No....A CALVINIST thinks God 'causes' us to choose Him or not. I'm saying the opposite is true. In fact, what I wrote describes exactly the opposite of what you think I believe.

let's say, for example, that if you choose to go to work tomorrow using a slightly more roundabout, but scenic route, that you will be broadsided by a driver blowing through a stoplight and you will die.......God knows that......does the fact that God knows this cause you to decide anything differently about which route to take to work?......no.....because God knows it, you don't.....you freely choose which route to take.....Now, let's say God doesn't want you dead this week because he has a use for you....."Dang, why didn't the alarm clock go off, now I'm going to be late for work"....or "Why do I have to have a flat tire now!"......maybe it even goes so far as your wife saying "I had a strange dream last night, don't go to work today".......now you could still blow off all those things, take the scenic route and die.....it's your choice....

see above.

now, substitute believing in God for driving to work.....God knows what you are going to choose.....he knows what path you followed and what steps you had to encounter before you made that decision.....He's prepared to put all those steps in place for you......but you are still the one who has to make that choice.......for others, God is aware that no matter what steps he places for them, they are going to repeatedly make the wrong choices.....that doesn't mean he's making the choices for them......

You are arguing my point against Calvinism.

A Calvinist believes we are complete depraved - unable to choose God. A Calvinist believes God has predestined us - that God picks who will choose him.

Sidebar - If one sin, committed by Adam and Eve is enough to damn us to hell/separation from God - whether we choose to sin or not - does it stand that Christ's one sacrifice stands as complete repayment for our sin, whether we choose it or not?

Lets also now look at the U in tulip: Unconditional Election.

Unconditional election is the Calvinist teaching that before God created the world, he chose to save some people according to his own purposes and apart from any conditions related to those persons.

A few simple points will refute this.

1. God is no respecter of persons Acts 10:34, Romans 2:11, and I Peter 1:17
2. If Christians are predestined why worry about the Devil I Peter 5:8?
3. If Christians could not do anything to change their condition and election then Romans 3:23 and 6:23 do not apply.

Absolutely - Also - and to me the most clearly-stated biblical proof that Calvin was wrong:

"not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance".

The implication is perfectly clear that some WILL perish. If Calvin were correct, as I wrote earlier, that verse would read "None shall perish because it's against God's will".

[SassyLady]

[QUOTE=PostmodernProphet;418951][QUOTE=mrskurtsprincess;418946]Yes....all that is was created by God and why would God create something that was not of his will? God created sin in order to provide an environment of choice. If God had not created sin how would we be in a state of choice at any time?

no, God did not create sin so we could make a choice.....sin is the act of making a bad choice.....it doesn't exist until we make the choice of disobedience.......


because you are still free to reject that influence....God may have given you a million opportunities to find reason to believe in him, but if you continue to refuse because that is your choice, then you have still chosen that destiny.....by the way, Calvinists call such a refusal the denial of the Holy Spirit....it is considered to be the one unpardonable sin......



the steps may be the catalyst that causes you to make the right choice....perhaps it's a combination of something your grandmother said to you thirty years ago with something you experience today....



because you are making the choices without sharing God's knowledge.....each choice is made upon evidence that is fresh to you and measured by your own judgment and will....a "nudge" is something you know you "ought" to do.....you may still choose to be disobedient...


I'm sure he created Tahiti just so he could have a place to take a break....

Oh .... I do believe in God .... just not the God that is described by Calvinism. See ..... God gave me the choice to believe what "I" want to believe.....my God doesn't put restrictions on my love or beliefs .... because that would be limiting my choices.

Calvinism wants to dictate what our thoughts and beliefs about God are......which is why I left the whole religion/church community/society so many years ago.

[PostmodernProphet]

I destroyed your position with only a superficial view of the first tenant of Calvinism. Defend it as you will, my friend, you cannot defend it scripturally, and therefore there is no defense for it at all.
.

???...you still haven't gotten past the fact that you have mis-described it....come up with some authority for randomly inserting your own definition or admit defeat....

No....A CALVINIST thinks God 'causes' us to choose Him or not.

lol....I thought I was the Calvinist here....stop telling me I believe things I don't believe.....

A Calvinist believes we are complete depraved - unable to choose God.

total depravity does not mean people are unable to choose God....please see my quote above regarding total depravity

A Calvinist believes God has predestined us - that God picks who will choose him.

...../shakes head.....that isn't what predestination means

Sidebar - If one sin, committed by Adam and Eve is enough to damn us to hell/separation from God - whether we choose to sin or not

????....and that isn't what original sin means....good lord, where did you pick up your understanding of theology, bubblegum wrappers?

Calvinism wants to dictate what our thoughts and beliefs about God are......

???...well, Calvinism does require that you believe in Jesus Christ as your savior.....what other thoughts and beliefs do you believe are "dictated"?.....