Christian faith: Calvinism is back

[SassyLady]

???...well, Calvinism does require that you believe in Jesus Christ as your savior.....what other thoughts and beliefs do you believe are "dictated"?.....

So, PMP - If you didn't have Calvinism around to "tell" you that you have to believe in Jesus Christ as your savior how would one know this was a requirement for everlasting life?

How would the isolated tribes of third world regions manage to be "saved" if they have never heard of Calvinism or Jesus Christ? Do you really think God would forsake them just because some edumacated individual wrote something down on a piece of paper and told the world this is how God set up the rules of the universe? And because they couldn't read or had no contact with the diciples of that person they are forever forsaken?

I don't think my God would have set things up this way.

[darin]

lol....I thought I was the Calvinist here....stop telling me I believe things I don't believe.....

You might be a 'bad' Calvinist. Calvin is CLEAR - unless GOD moves on somebody's heart we are powerless - UNABLE - to accept him. AND...IF God moves on somebody's heart, that person is powerless to NOT accept him...because HIS will dictates.

...../shakes head.....that isn't what predestination means

Pre-destined. Destiny decided ahead of time.

????....and that isn't what original sin means....good lord, where did you pick up your understanding of theology, bubblegum wrappers?

You are randomly deciding what words mean now. The ORIGINAL SIN OF ADAM...you know...when Adam and Eve decided to SIN, and therefor passed that sin, through biology onto mankind. Are you simply avoiding an honest question (and NOT a statement of theology) because you don't understand it, or are because you're being obtuse?

[PostmodernProphet]

So, PMP - If you didn't have Calvinism around to "tell" you that you have to believe in Jesus Christ as your savior how would one know this was a requirement for everlasting life?

How would the isolated tribes of third world regions manage to be "saved" if they have never heard of Calvinism or Jesus Christ? Do you really think God would forsake them just because some edumacated individual wrote something down on a piece of paper and told the world this is how God set up the rules of the universe? And because they couldn't read or had no contact with the diciples of that person they are forever forsaken?

I don't think my God would have set things up this way.

and I don't assume he did.....I wouldn't expect God to refuse to communicate with someone who had been isolated from the word.....but that's between him and the dying isolated guy......for all the rest of us the scriptures are pretty clear......by the way, don't try to twist this into something about having to believe in God and also be a Calvinist in order to be saved.....I haven't said that, Calvin hasn't said that, God hasn't said that, so I see no reason for you to say it......

so, for you and all the rest of the folks who aren't isolated in some third world tribe, what do you think is necessary to be right with God?.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Calvin is CLEAR - unless GOD moves on somebody's heart we are powerless - UNABLE - to accept him. AND...IF God moves on somebody's heart, that person is powerless to NOT accept him...because HIS will dictates.

all right....if Calvin in clear on that, link it.....



Pre-destined. Destiny decided ahead of time.

Book III. Chap. xxi. No one who wishes to be thought religious dares outright to deny predestination by which God chooses some for the hope of life, and condemns others to eternal death. But men entangle it with captious quibbles; and especially those who make foreknowledge the ground of it. We indeed attribute to God both predestination and foreknowledge; but we call it absurd to subordinate one to the other. When we attribute foreknowledge to God we mean that all things have ever been, and eternally remain, before his eyes; to that to his knowledge nothing is future or past, but all things are present; and present not in the sense that they are reproduced in imagination (as we are aware of past events which are retained in our memory), but present in the sense that he really sees and observes them placed, as it were, before his eyes. And this foreknowledge extends over the whole universe and over every creature.

The ORIGINAL SIN OF ADAM...you know...when Adam and Eve decided to SIN, and therefor passed that sin, through biology onto mankind. Are you simply avoiding an honest question (and NOT a statement of theology) because you don't understand it, or are because you're being obtuse?

actually it's neither....it's simply that you have completely fucked up the meaning of original sin.....it isn't because eating some apple was an original sin.....it's that because we are human, it is within our nature, our origin, to be sinful.....it's origin-al sin, not original sin....that's a pretty fundamental error to be making, dmp....

the understanding is clear....it doesn't matter who Adam and Eve were, if it had been you or me in the Garden of Eden we would have screwed things up just like they did, because by having free will, it is simply impossible for us to exercise it perfectly forever.....

[BoogyMan]

Lets look into the L in tupip now.

Limited Atonement, or the idea that Christ only died for those who have been chosen to be saved and none other. Once again, a simple reading of scripture makes the idea of "limited atonment" shine as false doctrine.

1. Christ died for the ungodly Romans 5:6
2. God did not elect he wants all men to be saved I Timothy 2:3-4 and II Peter 3:9.
a. Unfortunately the majority will reject Matthew 7:13-14.
3. Christ said ANY MAN – John 6:51
4. It was the whole world Christ died for John 3:16, II Corinthians 5:19, and I John 2:1-2.
a. It is the whole world the saving Gospel is to be taken to Matthew 28:19 and Mark 16:15-16.
5. Christ did not come to save the saved he came for the lost Luke 19:10.

[Noir]

I have to say as an atheist there is little odder than seeing people of te same religion (even the same sect of the same religion) fight about what exactly there god wants/means.

Reminds me of this;

[BoogyMan]

I have to say as an atheist there is little odder than seeing people of te same religion (even the same sect of the same religion) fight about what exactly there god wants/means.

Reminds me of this;

Your having claimed that we are "of the same religion" means nothing, Noir. You look at religion with a jaundiced eye, so don't expect much honest consideration of such a comment.

[Noir]

Your having claimed that we are "of the same religion" means nothing, Noir. You look at religion with a jaundiced eye, so don't expect much honest consideration of such a comment.

I made the point to say that even of it was proved a god existed. Even that it was a theistic god. Even that it was a Christian theistic god. Even if it was a Calvinist Christian theistic god. There would still be arguements, you must be able to see the humour in that.

[chloe]

I made the point to say that even of it was proved a god existed. Even that it was a theistic god. Even that it was a Christian theistic god. Even if it was a Calvinist Christian theistic god. There would still be arguements, you must be able to see the humour in that.

It is more confusing then funny from my point of view.

[Noir]

It is more confusing then funny from my point of view.

Indeedy, it's funny because it's confusing.

But on a deeper level, it is much more dark because it is confusing. Showing just how devicive religion is.

[chloe]

Indeedy, it's funny because it's confusing.

But on a deeper level, it is much more dark because it is confusing. Showing just how devicive religion is.

yeah I guess thats true too, I wish it wasn't.

[PostmodernProphet]

I have to say as an atheist there is little odder than seeing people of te same religion (even the same sect of the same religion) fight about what exactly there god wants/means.

Reminds me of this;

perhaps your confusion arises because you think we are arguing about whether each of us or the other are saved.....we aren't....we are arguing about whether Boogie is clueless about the theology of Calvinism.....

[BoogyMan]

perhaps your confusion arises because you think we are arguing about whether each of us or the other are saved.....we aren't....we are arguing about whether Boogie is clueless about the theology of Calvinism.....

We are arguing about a doctrine of men being placed over the teaching of the Bible, PMP. Calvinism is false doctrine, pure and simple.

Need we press on to the I in tulip?

Irresistible grace? The false teaching that God sends the Holy Spirit, only to those on the saved list, which removes their depraved nature inherited from Adam and creates within them a saving faith in Christ. The Holy Spirit thereafter guides them directly to understand and correctly interpret the Bible.

The Bible clearly rejects this notion.

1. The Spirit can be resisted Acts 7:51
2. It is the word and preaching that pricks the heart and leads men to know what God desires Acts 2:36-41

You would do well also to read through Romans 10:14-17

[BoogyMan]

Indeedy, it's funny because it's confusing.

But on a deeper level, it is much more dark because it is confusing. Showing just how devicive religion is.

Religion as defined in the Bible is clear and simple for man to follow. Religion as defined by men such as Calvin is deceptive, false, and will ensure eternal destruction.

[Noir]

Religion as defined in the Bible is clear and simple for man to follow. Religion as defined by men such as Calvin is deceptive, false, and will ensure eternal destruction.

You want something pure and simple?
How about the gloden rule,
1 rule, that's all, no need for gods, no room for misinterpretation. Simply simple.