Here's a quote for you....

[revelarts]

[revelarts]

There is a moral virtue,
a moral fidelity,
ability and honesty,
which other men, besides church members,
are, by good nature and education,
by good laws and good examples nourished and trained up in;
so that civil places and trust and credit need not be monopolized into the hands of church members
(who sometimes are not fitted for public office),
while all others are deprived and despoiled of their natural and civil rights and liberties.

Roger Williams

[revelarts]

Civil government is an ordinance of God,
to conserve the civil peace of a people, so far as concerns their bodies and goods.
Roger Williams

[Kathianne]

I don't doubt for a moment that Williams would agree with you. Then again as a Catholic, I'm really glad a Puritan isn't running the show.

I deplore many so called Christians, especially those who are absolute in who is saved and who condemned.

Not one of my Jesus friends.

[revelarts]

I don't doubt for a moment that Williams would agree with you. Then again as a Catholic, I'm really glad a Puritan isn't running the show.

I deplore many so called Christians, especially those who are absolute in who is saved and who condemned.

Not one of my Jesus friends.

Aren't there Catholics that say if you aren't in the Roman Catholic Church you're not going to heaven?
Maybe not the pope. seems he thinks everybody is A-OK. But some conservative Catholics? Do you deplore them too?

And didn't the Puritans have to run to America from the Catholics? To be able get and give the religious freedom to believe what they wanted, even if it's misused and hurts people's feelings deeply?

Hurt feelings is real and should not be the point, but it's one level of pain.
But prison, exile, and the rack for not believing exactly like 'the Church' are another level.
just sayin.
Historically speaking... there's a reason why there are were so many Puritains at the founding of the US.

[Kathianne]

Aren't there Catholics that say if you aren't in the Roman Catholic Church you're not going to heaven?
Maybe not the pope. seems he thinks everybody is A-OK. But some conservative Catholics? Do you deplore them too?

Yes.

And didn't the Puritans have to run to America from the Catholics? To be able get and give the religious freedom to believe what they wanted, even if it's misused and hurts people's feelings deeply?

I believe they were running from the Dutch and their own rebellious children.

Hurt feelings is real and should not be the point, but it's one level of pain.
But prison, exile, and the rack for not believing exactly like 'the Church' are another level.
just sayin.
Historically speaking... there's a reason why there are were so many Puritains at the founding of the US.

Yes, but not the same people, education wise or outlook wise as Founders. For those who wish to go for Puritans, I suppose the Amish are about as close as you'll get, but I don't think they are recruiting?

[icansayit]

No matter what your beliefs. Nor how you view any other human being.

FAITH...is the belief in the Unseen.
As our 1st Amendment declared: "We all have the Freedom of Religion. Nobody can change, or take that away."

To be honest with everyone here. It is NONE of anyone else's Business! Short and To The Point.

[revelarts]

"English migration to Massachusetts consisted of a few hundred pilgrims who went to Plymouth Colony in the 1620s and between 13,000 and 21,000 emigrants who went to the Massachusetts Bay Colony between 1630 and 1642." fleeing for $$ and from the Church of England thought to cozy with the Catholics.

Yes, but not the same people, education wise or outlook wise as Founders. For those who wish to go for Puritans, I suppose the Amish are about as close as you'll get, but I don't think they are recruiting?

not sure what your saying exactly but
I know some protestants have caused you pain but please lets not erase history.


William Penn Puritan Founder of Pennsylvania
Roger Williams Puritan Founder of Rhode Island
Thomas Hooker Puritan Minister and Founder of the Connecticut Colony
Roger Sherman Puritan of Connecticut remembered as the architect of the Connecticut Compromise, which prevented a stalemate between states during the creation of the United States Constitution.
the only person to sign all four of the important American Revolutionary documents: the Articles of Association in 1774, the Declaration of Independence in 1776, the Articles of Confederation in 1781, and the Constitution of the United States in 1787
here are a few book titles
- John Winthrop: America's Forgotten Founding Father - Puritan
-The Puritan Ideology of Mobility: Corporatism, the Politics of Place and the Founding of New England Towns before 1650
-The Beginnings of New England Or the Puritan Theocracy in its Relations to Civil and Religious Liberty
- First Founders: American Puritans and Puritanism in an Atlantic World


As i showed in just a few of his quotes the concept of separation of church and state was CLEARLY outlined by Roger Williams and Rhode Island that he founded. It was the MODEL for the concept we now take for granted... and abuse.
Before Jefferson, before Pain, before Madison they all looked to him, that oppressive Puritan?



Let's keep it real, let's not do the liberals job for them. They want to erase the puritans and religion from American history and contemporary life . even in looking these items up the search engine put up that dismiss or downplay or demonize the Puritans role in the nations founding

[revelarts]

No matter what your beliefs. Nor how you view any other human being.

FAITH...is the belief in the Unseen.
As our 1st Amendment declared: "We all have the Freedom of Religion. Nobody can change, or take that away."

To be honest with everyone here. It is NONE of anyone else's Business! Short and To The Point.

the 1st amendment that was taking it's CUE from what Roger Williams the puritan did in Rhode Island nearly 100 years earlier.
the only reason it's there is because of a religious persons conviction and understanding of God's POV from the Bible itself.

that Belief in that UNSEEN RIGHT comes from a belief in the UNSEEN God.

why are conservative people upset with me saying this?

[Kathianne]

"English migration to Massachusetts consisted of a few hundred pilgrims who went to Plymouth Colony in the 1620s and between 13,000 and 21,000 emigrants who went to the Massachusetts Bay Colony between 1630 and 1642." fleeing for $$ and from the Church of England thought to cozy with the Catholics.





not sure what your saying exactly but
I know some protestants have caused you pain but please lets not erase history.


William Penn Puritan Founder of Pennsylvania
Roger Williams Puritan Founder of Rhode Island
Thomas Hooker Puritan Minister and Founder of the Connecticut Colony
Roger Sherman Puritan of Connecticut remembered as the architect of the Connecticut Compromise, which prevented a stalemate between states during the creation of the United States Constitution.
the only person to sign all four of the important American Revolutionary documents: the Articles of Association in 1774, the Declaration of Independence in 1776, the Articles of Confederation in 1781, and the Constitution of the United States in 1787
here are a few book titles
- John Winthrop: America's Forgotten Founding Father - Puritan
-The Puritan Ideology of Mobility: Corporatism, the Politics of Place and the Founding of New England Towns before 1650
-The Beginnings of New England Or the Puritan Theocracy in its Relations to Civil and Religious Liberty
- First Founders: American Puritans and Puritanism in an Atlantic World


As i showed in just a few of his quotes the concept of separation of church and state was CLEARLY outlined by Roger Williams and Rhode Island that he founded. It was the MODEL for the concept we now take for granted... and abuse.
Before Jefferson, before Pain, before Madison they all looked to him, that oppressive Puritan?



Let's keep it real, let's not do the liberals job for them. They want to erase the puritans and religion from American history and contemporary life . even in looking these items up the search engine put up that dismiss or downplay or demonize the Puritans role in the nations founding

I've no desire to erase history, neither Puritans nor Pilgrims. I also do not use them as my heroes, as their intolerance was every bit as strong as the Church of England, that the Puritans were trying to 'reform' and the Pilgrims had lost hope in. Either way, they were Protestants that hated the Catholics and would gladly have murdered them if given half a chance.

[revelarts]

I've no desire to erase history, neither Puritans nor Pilgrims. I also do not use them as my heroes, as their intolerance was every bit as strong as the Church of England, that the Puritans were trying to 'reform' and the Pilgrims had lost hope in. Either way, they were Protestants that hated the Catholics and would gladly have murdered them if given half a chance.

Ok, i think i hear you.

[revelarts]

Moving on
I'm just adding my earlier point about the Christain roots of the RIGHT of religious freedom.





"Thomas Helwys, (born c. 1550—died c. 1616), English Puritan leader, member of a Separatist group that emigrated to Amsterdam (1608), where he helped organize the first Baptist church. Returning to England (1611/12) to witness to his belief in adult Baptism and greater individual moral responsibility (against extreme Calvinist predestination), Helwys established the first General Baptist congregation in London. He was imprisoned for advocating universal religious tolerance and the independence of the church from state control."
Britanica

Christians working against the state and other christians to establish the RIGHT of religious freedom for everyone.
in the late 1500s and early 1600s
The 1st permanent settlement in the U.S. was Jamestown that didn't start until 1607.
the road to the right of religious freedom from the state came from Religious Christians.




"Thomas Hooker, (born probably July 7, 1586, Markfield, Leicestershire, England—died July 7, 1647, Hartford, Connecticut [U.S.]),
prominent British American colonial clergyman known as “the father of Connecticut.” Seeking independence from other Puritan sects in Massachusetts, Thomas Hooker and his followers established one of the first major colonies in Hartford, Connecticut. A staunch supporter of universal Christian suffrage (voting rights independent of church membership), Hooker was a renowned theologian and orator who greatly shaped the early development of colonial New England."

Early 1600s America... a Puritan is making these points. And he's not the only one.
the concept of the power of the state coming from the people. And the rights of citizenship NOT being linked legally to any specific religious membership.
Secularist & Deist like Jefferson & Paine are not even out of diapers or alive yet.


The point is a lot of the roots of the ideals & rights we take for granted came from extremely religious people... with religious reasons.
I think most would agree that , at the least, to better understand the ideals we want to preserve and renew we should understand where and why they came to be.
Even if we don't want to LEAD with it in public because so many of our tolerant fellow citizens are... um... less than open to Christianity these days.

[revelarts]

Truth never lost ground by enquiry.

....

No people can be truly happy... if abridged of the freedom of their conscience

....

Love is the hardest lesson in Christianity; but, for that reason, it should be most our care to learn it.



William Penn

[Kathianne]

I like some of those later posts, especially when you, yourself make the point that fj and Gunny and I were making all along. One can be very religious and tolerant enough not to invoke God as the reason for laws, nor a reason to follow those laws. It also does not deny God, nor His existence.

God is much stronger than Trump and such, doesn't need the acolytes to make Him real.

[icansayit]

the 1st amendment that was taking it's CUE from what Roger Williams the puritan did in Rhode Island nearly 100 years earlier.
the only reason it's there is because of a religious persons conviction and understanding of God's POV from the Bible itself.

that Belief in that UNSEEN RIGHT comes from a belief in the UNSEEN God.

why are conservative people upset with me saying this?

What does MY being conservative have to do with anything? Did I sound upset?

That's why I insist..."IT'S NOBODY ELSE'S BUSINESS WHAT I BELIEVE OR HAVE FAITH IN!"

Many of us were taught, at a young age. Avoid talking about Religion and Politics. So...what do we do here?