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  1. #16
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    Like I said at the beginning of this thread. I'm using this as kind of a running line on the bill of rights, but our rights acknowledge in the constitution more broadly. Not really expecting much comment. some items are kind of stream of consciousness and what i'm reading and viewing on the matter.


    I hit this interesting speed bump in the federalist paper # 84.

    "...The creation of crimes after the commission of the fact, or, in other words, the subjecting of men to punishment for things which, when they were done, were breaches of no law, and the practice of arbitrary imprisonments, have been, in all ages, the favorite and most formidable instruments of tyranny. The observations of the judicious Blackstone,1 in reference to the latter, are well worthy of recital: "To bereave a man of life, Usays he,e or by violence to confiscate his estate, without accusation or trial, would be so gross and notorious an act of despotism, as must at once convey the alarm of tyranny throughout the whole nation; but confinement of the person, by secretly hurrying him to jail, where his sufferings are unknown or forgotten, is a less public, a less striking, and therefore A MORE DANGEROUS ENGINE of arbitrary government." And as a remedy for this fatal evil he is everywhere peculiarly emphatical in his encomiums on the habeas-corpus act, which in one place he calls "the BULWARK of the British Constitution....""


    the assumption was that we would never do that here. Never put some one in jail with a trail or in secret. But sadly we have, and have attempted to find ways to justify it legally in congress and the courts. Both Bush and Obama are DOING this day. there are people in jail in bases in Afghanistan and still in secret prisons around the world. I don't believe the secret prisons are close like Obama says.

    " ...so gross and notorious an act of despotism...And as a remedy for this fatal evil .... the habeas-corpus act, ,... he calls "the BULWARK of the British Constitution...."

    whoah how far have we fallen, EVEN HAMILTON UNDERSTOOD THIS but some of us now have mistakenly called on the gov't to do it and don't see the danger of allowing gov't the authority to do it.
    Last edited by revelarts; 08-11-2010 at 02:15 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Like I said at the beginning of this thread. I'm using this as kind of a running line on the bill of rights, but our rights acknowledge in the constitution more broadly. Not really expecting much comment. some items are kind of stream of consciousness and what i'm reading and viewing on the matter.


    I hit this interesting speed bump in the federalist paper # 84.

    "...The creation of crimes after the commission of the fact, or, in other words, the subjecting of men to punishment for things which, when they were done, were breaches of no law, and the practice of arbitrary imprisonments, have been, in all ages, the favorite and most formidable instruments of tyranny. The observations of the judicious Blackstone,1 in reference to the latter, are well worthy of recital: "To bereave a man of life, Usays he,e or by violence to confiscate his estate, without accusation or trial, would be so gross and notorious an act of despotism, as must at once convey the alarm of tyranny throughout the whole nation; but confinement of the person, by secretly hurrying him to jail, where his sufferings are unknown or forgotten, is a less public, a less striking, and therefore A MORE DANGEROUS ENGINE of arbitrary government." And as a remedy for this fatal evil he is everywhere peculiarly emphatical in his encomiums on the habeas-corpus act, which in one place he calls "the BULWARK of the British Constitution....""


    the assumption was that we would never do that here. Never put some one in jail with a trail or in secret. But sadly we have, and have attempted to find ways to justify it legally in congress and the courts. Both Bush and Obama are DOING this day. there are people in jail in bases in Afghanistan and still in secret prisons around the world. I don't believe the secret prisons are close like Obama says.

    " ...so gross and notorious an act of despotism...And as a remedy for this fatal evil .... the habeas-corpus act, ,... he calls "the BULWARK of the British Constitution...."

    whoah how far have we fallen, EVEN HAMILTON UNDERSTOOD THIS but some of us now have mistakenly called on the gov't to do it and don't see the danger of allowing gov't the authority to do it.
    I dont think that rights granted to American citizens extend to aliens and/or military combatants.
    That is what the Geneva convention was for
    I DONT CLAIM TO KN0OW ANYTHING ABOUT HUMAN NATURE
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    OIR DO I KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT CRITICAL THINKING

  3. #18
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    It's my understanding that our rights in the U.S. are considered inalienable human rights.
    If someone is not a citizen does that mean we can make them a slave?
    If someone is visiting from England with a passport and they steal a car, they are subject to the same law as citizens plus possible deportation. We can't torture them. Why? He's got rights. We don't just throw him in jail without a trial just because they are not citizens or because we think he might steal a car. It's not in the legitimate authority of gov't..

    There are certain privileges of citizenship, like voting or holding an office, but rights are another story.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  4. #19
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    military combatants , like you mentioned are covered under Geneva and the code of military conduct.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  5. #20
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    Judge Napolitano! of FOX news was on C-span talking about his book. 'Lies The Government Told You' with Ralph Nader of all people.

    But Wow, He is so on point
    here's 1 clip. He's talking about the constitution It might be to hot for some of ya.
    At About 6:00 he starts talking about the 4th amendment and what the patriot act does. it's even worse than i thought.

    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/9oeMZHpYaQE?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/9oeMZHpYaQE?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  6. #21
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    California Judges Rules OK to Track and Spy, 4th amendment does not apply.

    Government agents can sneak onto your property in the middle of the night, put a GPS device on the bottom of your car and keep track of everywhere you go. This doesn't violate your Fourth Amendment rights, because you do not have any reasonable expectation of privacy in your own driveway - and no reasonable expectation that the government isn't tracking your movements.

    That is the bizarre - and scary - rule that now applies in California and eight other Western states. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, which covers this vast jurisdiction, recently decided the government can monitor you in this way virtually anytime it wants - with no need for a search warrant. (See a TIME photoessay on Cannabis Culture.)

    It is a dangerous decision - one that, as the dissenting judges warned, could turn America into the sort of totalitarian state imagined by George Orwell. It is particularly offensive because the judges added insult to injury with some shocking class bias: the little personal privacy that still exists, the court suggested, should belong mainly to the rich.

    ....Chief Judge Alex Kozinski, who dissented from this month's decision refusing to reconsider the case, pointed out whose homes are not open to strangers: rich people's. The court's ruling, he said, means that people who protect their homes with electric gates, fences and security booths have a large protected zone of privacy around their homes. People who cannot afford such barriers have to put up with the government sneaking around at night.

    Judge Kozinski is a leading conservative, appointed by President Ronald Reagan, but in his dissent he came across as a raging liberal. "There's been much talk about diversity on the bench, but there's one kind of diversity that doesn't exist," he wrote. "No truly poor people are appointed as federal judges, or as state judges for that matter." The judges in the majority, he charged, were guilty of "cultural elitism." (Read about one man's efforts to escape the surveillance state.)

    The court went on to make a second terrible decision about privacy: that once a GPS device has been planted, the government is free to use it to track people without getting a warrant. There is a major battle under way in the federal and state courts over this issue, and the stakes are high. After all, if government agents can track people with secretly planted GPS devices virtually anytime they want, without having to go to a court for a warrant, we are one step closer to a classic police state - with technology taking on the role of the KGB or the East German Stasi.

    Fortunately, other courts are coming to a different conclusion from the Ninth Circuit's - including the influential U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit. That court ruled, also this month, that tracking for an extended period of time with GPS is an invasion of privacy that requires a warrant. The issue is likely to end up in the Supreme Court.....
    full story here:
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/08599201315000
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonStryk72 View Post
    The only particular issue I have with his opinion is his insistence on putting homosexuality up with pedophilia and incest. They are not nearly the same thing, where in pedophilia, obviously one of the participants is not old to have informed consent and in incest where it is actually bad in a provable sense (creates mutations in the genetic code, that sort of thing).

    Homosexuality most often is between two consenting adults, in which it falls under life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It is allowed by the ideals we stand by, that the government has no right to tell you how to live your life, or with whom. It is not the same as allowing sexual predators to do whatever they want, and it never will be.
    Physically speaking, homosexuality is much more destructive than incest.
    Most homosexuals have their first sexual experience with an adult while they are still minors.
    The misconception that incest often leads to mutations isnt true.
    I DONT CLAIM TO KN0OW ANYTHING ABOUT HUMAN NATURE
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    It's my understanding that our rights in the U.S. are considered inalienable human rights.
    If someone is not a citizen does that mean we can make them a slave?
    If someone is visiting from England with a passport and they steal a car, they are subject to the same law as citizens plus possible deportation. We can't torture them. Why? He's got rights. We don't just throw him in jail without a trial just because they are not citizens or because we think he might steal a car. It's not in the legitimate authority of gov't..

    There are certain privileges of citizenship, like voting or holding an office, but rights are another story.
    Some good points, and yet, unless you are a citizen, certain rights, or privledges are not afforded you.
    Plus, military combatants are a very strong case in themselves, whereas they forfeit a lot of rights by volunteering to be combatants against us.
    I DONT CLAIM TO KN0OW ANYTHING ABOUT HUMAN NATURE
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    OIR DO I KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT CRITICAL THINKING

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuvRPgrl View Post
    unless you are a citizen, certain rights are not afforded you.
    Don't look now, but you just admitted that some rights ARE given by the government...unless you intend to argue that a god would bestow rights based on nationality.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    It's my understanding that our rights in the U.S. are considered inalienable human rights.
    If someone is not a citizen does that mean we can make them a slave?
    If someone is visiting from England with a passport and they steal a car, they are subject to the same law as citizens plus possible deportation. We can't torture them. Why? He's got rights. We don't just throw him in jail without a trial just because they are not citizens or because we think he might steal a car. It's not in the legitimate authority of gov't..

    There are certain privileges of citizenship, like voting or holding an office, but rights are another story.
    Not all rights are 'natural rights':

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...
    We have the 'right' to vote, yet there are restrictions. Same with driving a car.

    Now to get to 'problems' with natural or expected restricted rights-see the rest of 2/3 regarding the 'wrongs' done and listed in Declaration.
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmp View Post
    The government absolutely has and takes the responsibility to tell us how to live. While we have certain rights, (and even some of those aren't rights anymore), there exist privledges. Of those is 'marrige'...Driving...hrm...Seat belt or helmet laws, etc...things like that.

    The Gov't is well within its rights to set down restrictions for those things. Let the people decide.

    re: Homosexuality, etc...

    Sin is sin. Homosexuality hurts people physically and emotionally. One data point that proves that is the life-expectency of those who choose that lifestyle. There are other data points; domestic violence rates, etc, which corroborate the distructive nature of the lifestyle. The man in the video is spot-on-correct to compare homosexuality with incest and pedofilia - at least in terms of sinfulness...although I don't know the bible speaks specificially of incest.
    One has to be a Christian to Sin

    I also have been around Homosexuals pretty much my entire adult life along with having friends and family that are gay. So I believe I have a pretty good take on this matter and this is complete BS being spewed about Homosexuality hurts people physically and emotionally. Fact is most all of your sexual perverts and child molesters are so called Heterosexuals, how about those Child Molesting Priests eh?

    What does some of the most twisted monsters in history like Stalin, Hitler, Ed Gein, etc. have in common?

    Raised in obsessive religous homes.

    So why don't you stop spewing this trip eh?

    If someone is gay they're no threat to me nor is it any of my nor anyone else's business.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    Not all rights are 'natural rights':



    We have the 'right' to vote, yet there are restrictions. Same with driving a car.

    Now to get to 'problems' with natural or expected restricted rights-see the rest of 2/3 regarding the 'wrongs' done and listed in Declaration.

    Yes, there are restrictions. I'm not sure the driving restrictions are quite valid myself.

    "Certain" rights yes ...."that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

    those are pretty broad concepts.

    "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, "


    Liberty is the concept that comes into play with the current conflict and discussion over Gitmo,

    Among the complaints about King George
    "For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:"
    Sounds like what we are doing now.
    "For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences"
    Yeah that's what we are doing. Maybe not pretended but still some are.
    Last edited by revelarts; 09-06-2010 at 01:30 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Yes, there are restrictions. I'm not sure the driving restrictions are quite valid myself.

    "Certain" rights yes ...."that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

    those are pretty broad concepts.

    "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, "


    Liberty is the concept that comes into play with the current conflict and discussion over Gitmo,

    Among the complaints about King George
    "For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:"
    Sounds like what we are doing now.
    Example?

    "For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences"Are you referring to rendition?
    Yeah that's what we are doing. Maybe not pretended but still some are.
    For the most part 'natural rights' were defined as:

    Be able to live-not have someone kill you, just because they were stronger and brighter.

    Same with property-the right to keep what you've earned.

    Liberty-well that is a bit dicier, but for the most part means to be left alone by government, unless one fails to render unto Caesar. An assumption of consent of the governed here, mentioned quite a lot in Declaration under various forms.
    “The greatness of America lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults.” De Tocqueville



  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by KathiAnne
    Examples:
    Many of the people in Gitmo have never had a trail at all. Years in prison without a trail. Many now in Bagram Air Base and secret "closed" sites. the same.

    Heck even in local traffic court there's no trail by jury allowed.

    And Technically
    Military Tribunals are not trails by jury. However I can see the use of those in rare instances.

    Quote Originally Posted by KathiAnne
    Renditions?
    Yes.
    Last edited by revelarts; 09-06-2010 at 02:12 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    illegal Search made easy and discrete.

    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/DGCd0KPJcMs?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DGCd0KPJcMs?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

    illegal Search made easy and discret
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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