Of the Bill of Rights?

[LuvRPgrl]

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, "

LLUv

I think that quote pretty much sums it up.
the gov't, any gov't derives it's just powers from the consent of the governed..

One of the most beautiful statements ever made,,


Yes, which takes me back to my point about hopelessness about our future, as the govt has managed to create a situation where the current young generation and generations to come, of voters, are extremely dumbed down and ignorant. College kids cant even tell me which that Lincoln was our 16th president.

"you say that you allow for the gov't to hold prisoners in this new indefinite undeclared war .. basically forever without trial and again NOT PICKED UP FROM the "field of battle", not a hot field anyway, by the old definition, but i guess the new field defined as the whole world..

Yes, it an entirely new uype of war, there is no defined battlefield. Its a type of war that didnt exist in 1789

"You allow for it with trepidation. I'm glad you see some danger in it. I'd like to hear what causes you some mild concern with that. Personally I'm sorta freaked out about it..

Actually, not mild, but alot, however, I havent heard or learned anything yet, that would cause me to say shut it down. In other words, as long as Gitmo is confined to terrorists, although to be honest, Im not even sure if thats the case or how they define terrorist.
But essentially Im a RADICAL right wing libertarian in theory, Republican in pragmatic terms. So I OPPOSE VEHEMENTLY any powers given to any level of govt, as they already have wayyyyy more than the COTUS allows, or the should have or need. They have extended soooo far beyond any bounds the Founding Fathers ever intended its ridiculous and anyone who disclaims this is simply delusional

"But your point that it's a new situation is interesting but it seems it really should force the "governed" to come up with new rules to deal with it..

I suppose technically they do by voting in representatives and judges who make the decisions on how to deal with it, Im not sure how it could be dealt with directly

" Since the constitution does not define the boundaries, the gov'ts hands should have been tied. No Authority no action. Instead. what has happened is Ad Hoc supra constitutional, supra legal executive, legislative and judicial orders and actions. All without the peoples consent..

I would hope if that were true then the Supreme Court would intervene

"taking it back a step from there, just because a person is not a citizen doesn't give our gov't the right to indefinitely imprison, torture and or kill them. Where's that in the constitution? Human right at least mean the rights not to be put in prison, and in the U.S. even the worse murders get a trail citizen or not. the idea that the only people on the planet who have rights are Americans seems to me to be, well, unamerican.

which is not what Im saying at all. My stance is if terrorists are caught, then they, as enemy combatants, are reduced down to the bare minimum of human rights, I even support torture if we know for an undisputable fact that the prisoner is a terrorist.

[Pagan]

I agree there are natural rights...but there are also rights given by the government. The right to vote, for instance, doesn't exist unless the government you live under allows it.

Nope, Government only takes away Natural Rights, it does not grant any rights. The Constitution dictates under what conditions Government may infringe on the Natural Rights of the people.

[LuvRPgrl]

The "Federal" Government has no power unless it is granted to it by the Constitution. The 10th clearly spells it out.

There "IS" no Government without the Constitution, the Constitution defines the ONLY power the Government has. States have their own Constitution and they also do not have any power beyond what their Constitution grants their State Government.

concur 100%

[Missileman]

Nope, Government only takes away Natural Rights, it does not grant any rights. The Constitution dictates under what conditions Government may infringe on the Natural Rights of the people.

Sorry, but the right to vote is not a natural right. It only exists under governments that hold elections. It is a legal right, not a natural right.

[Pagan]

Sorry, but the right to vote is not a natural right. It only exists under governments that hold elections. It is a legal right, not a natural right.

So you're saying the People do not have the Natural Right to choose their own Government?

WRONG!

It is the Natural Right of the People to choose the Society they wish to live in and under. The Constitution is a set of laws that the Government operates. Government only exists to take the Natural Rights away from the People under the conditions the People allow.

[LuvRPgrl]

Your entire premise is based on an assumption. If and when some deity comes down to earth and declares I have the right to an attorney for instance, THEN you can claim my rights are god-given. Until that occurs, my rights are derived from the COTUS which was written by men.?

I know you think very highly of me, & I appreciate the compliment, but I have to be honest and tell you, it wasn't me who wrote the DOI, therefore it was THEIR assumption, and one we are governed under.
Once again illustrating a basic mis understanding in basic logic by you

Hell...you can't even produce a Biblical reference for half of the rights we enjoy as citizens of the U.S. If all these rights are god-given, they should be found in the Bible, no?

Actually they are, without getting into an arguement, I would need a list of what you consider the "rights" we have and then I could find the references.

[LuvRPgrl]

So disagreeing with your assinine position makes me myopic? Let me guess...you don't think that disagreeing with mine makes you myopic and close-minded. You really are a tard!

Nope, didnt say that,ever. AGAIN, a basic mis use of rational thinking and a lack of logic on your part. Ignoring questions, ignoring statements of fact, makes you myoptic.

You have a conclusion you want to have, and you only look at the information that supports it and ignore the rest. That makes you myoptic

[Missileman]

So you're saying the People do not have the Natural Right to choose their own Government?

WRONG!

It is the Natural Right of the People to choose the Society they wish to live in and under. The Constitution is a set of laws that the Government operates. Government only exists to take the Natural Rights away from the People under the conditions the People allow.

Sorry pal, but I can't declare myself king and choose to live in a monarchy.

[Pagan]

Sorry pal, but I can't declare myself king and choose to live in a monarchy.

Aaah you can if you've got People willing to be ruled by you.

Look at the Amish, they live under a complete Christian Socialist society.

Furthermore you are the Monarch of your own home

[Missileman]

I know you think very highly of me, & I appreciate the compliment, but I have to be honest and tell you, it wasn't me who wrote the DOI, therefore it was THEIR assumption, and one we are governed under.
Once again illustrating a basic mis understanding in basic logic by you




Actually they are, without getting into an arguement, I would need a list of what you consider the "rights" we have and then I could find the references.

I'll give you a few easy ones...freedom of religion, the right to an attorney, the right to a trial by jury of peers, the right to own a gun. Good luck!

[Missileman]

Aaah you can if you've got People willing to be ruled by you.

Look at the Amish, they live under a complete Christian Socialist society.

Furthermore you are the Monarch of your own home

I can't abstain from paying local, state, or federal taxes because I've declared myself king of my own home.

[Pagan]

I'll give you a few easy ones...freedom of religion, the right to an attorney, the right to a trial by jury of peers, the right to own a gun. Good luck!

Very easy --

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Read the context, it sets the rules for "HOW" Government may infringe on the Natural Rights.

Further reinforced by this very clear text -

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

[Pagan]

I can't abstain from paying local, state, or federal taxes because I've declared myself king of my own home.

Neither can other countries abstain from paying international fees and duties to operate in the Global Arena.

[LuvRPgrl]

Sorry pal, but I can't declare myself king and choose to live in a monarchy.

WOW, you certaqinly go on with mis understanding somebody's post.
Pagan referred to people as plural, no any one person.

And YES, if enough of a majority of people voted to change the form of govt

to make you king, then it would be so

[Missileman]

Very easy --

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Read the context, it sets the rules for "HOW" Government may infringe on the Natural Rights.

Further reinforced by this very clear text -

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

The task was to find a Biblical basis for those rights.