American Indians and Genocide

[Agnapostate]

Maybe there was, maybe there wasn't, I don't know.

But I am interested to know what you think should be done if it's decided there was? If Obama went on TV tonight and said that he acknowledged genocide took place, that what happened was a cruel act of savagery, and that he wished to issue an apology for what took place, would that be enough or would you want something more?

If I clearly opposed the proclamation of apologies in another instance concerning Guatemalan Mayan Indians, stating that it should have been a condemnation and not an apology, why would I support an "apology" in this instance? And no, of course meaningless words are not sufficient, but there would be raised public awareness that could contribute to more significant concrete action.

[Noir]

If I clearly opposed the proclamation of apologies in another instance concerning Guatemalan Mayan Indians, stating that it should have been a condemnation and not an apology, why would I support an "apology" in this instance? And no, of course meaningless words are not sufficient, but there would be raised public awareness that could contribute to more significant concrete action.

Okay, so given words aren't enough, what is enough?

[Agnapostate]

Okay, so given words aren't enough, what is enough?

How about what has been stated repeatedly in this thread? The abolition of capitalism.

[Noir]

How about what has been stated repeatedly in this thread? The abolition of capitalism.

And what does that have to do with genocide?

[Agnapostate]

And what does that have to do with genocide?

Noir, I don't know why you come into every thread with numerous ignorant questions that indicate that you haven't read a single post prior to your own, with it taking about six posts on my part to shove a very basic fact through your head. I suppose the best that can be said for you is that you eventually gain some rudimentary understanding on some occasions, while others simply remain ignorant.

[Noir]

Noir, I don't know why you come into every thread with numerous ignorant questions that indicate that you haven't read a single post prior to your own, with it taking about six posts on my part to shove a very basic fact through your head. I suppose the best that can be said for you is that you eventually gain some rudimentary understanding on some occasions, while others simply remain ignorant.

How delightful,
Now would you like to answer the question or not?

[Agnapostate]

How delightful,
Now would you like to answer the question or not?

I'll simplify. This:



Bad.

This:



Bad. Bad for Sioux. Consequence for Sioux peoples?



Bad. 80% unemployment bad.

[Noir]

So how will the abolishion of Capitalism do anything to help that? Nevermk d redress the genocide issue?

From what I can see you obviously have a radical political ideology, and funnily enough the *only* action that you see as able to redress what happened in the past is the imposition of your ideology, even though it has nothing to do with the genocide.
You're playing politics with a tragedy, personally I find that pretty horrid.

[Agnapostate]

So how will the abolishion of Capitalism do anything to help that?

Substantial reductions in economic poverty.

Nevermk d redress the genocide issue?

It was part and parcel of the overall dispossession that led to these current economic circumstances.

From what I can see you obviously have a radical political ideology, and funnily enough the *only* action that you see as able to redress what happened in the past is the imposition of your ideology, even though it has nothing to do with the genocide.
You're playing politics with a tragedy, personally I find that pretty horrid.

Um, it's unclear to me why you believe that promoting political radicalism to solve the issue is inappropriate. Why promote communism if not to alleviate the sufferings of the majority of the people in the world? For fun? Because Marx and Kropotkin had cool beards?

[Pagan]

Substantial reductions in economic poverty.



It was part and parcel of the overall dispossession that led to these current economic circumstances.



Um, it's unclear to me why you believe that promoting political radicalism to solve the issue is inappropriate. Why promote communism if not to alleviate the sufferings of the majority of the people in the world? For fun? Because Marx and Kropotkin had cool beards?

Yep, Socialist Utopia

[Noir]

Substantial reductions in economic poverty.

Well under your model there'd be no economy, so I guess there could be no 'economic' poverty...

It was part and parcel of the overall dispossession that led to these current economic circumstances.

So what's stopping them getting a job today? (above and beyond the problem everyone has given recent times)

Um, it's unclear to me why you believe that promoting political radicalism to solve the issue is inappropriate. Why promote communism if not to alleviate the sufferings of the majority of the people in the world? For fun? Because Marx and Kropotkin had cool beards?

But surly you would want that whether there had been a genocide or not, so your communist beliefs have nothing to do with the genocide, right?

[Agnapostate]

Well under your model there'd be no economy,

I can only assume this is some kind of ill-conceived joke. The nature of socialism relies on the integral facet of workers' ownership and management, which bolsters even the capitalist economy. It simply involves its extrapolation into an organized network of such firms that control natural and physical capital.

so I guess there could be no 'economic' poverty...

It essentially evolves substantial reductions of absolute poverty, with eventual elimination being the goal.

So what's stopping them getting a job today?

"Them"? The Oglala Sioux on the Pine Ridge reservation? I would postulate that the general lack of formal employment opportunities associated with undeveloped and underdeveloped infrastructure, as well as the lack of human capital acquisition associated with a lack of education, is responsible.

(above and beyond the problem everyone has given recent times)

Certainly; capitalism will always involve a certain level of equilibrium unemployment, with this being aggravated during the inevitable crises of the business cycle.

But surly you would want that whether there had been a genocide or not, so your communist beliefs have nothing to do with the genocide, right?

Well, if there was no injustice in the world, there would be no need for remediation, would there? But we non-utopians don't look to the fantasy ideal of the free market.

[Trigg]

Agna likes to ignore two very basic facts.

1. Communism has never worked. The gov. were still corrupt and their were still poor people.

2. Indians are not forced to stay on reservations. They, like everyone else, are free to travel and seek employment. Be that in other parts of their state, a different state or heck even leaving the US in search of work.

[Agnapostate]

Agna likes to ignore two very basic facts.

1. Communism has never worked. The gov. were still corrupt and their were still poor people.

Demonstrably false.

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/spaindx.html

http://libcom.org/history/1917-1921-...ovist-movement

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist.../koreahis.html

http://libcom.org/library/commune-ch...patista-mexico

http://www.amazon.com/Living-Revolut.../dp/1904859151

http://eipcp.net/transversal/0805/kuljic/en/print

Also not the topic of the thread. If you'd like to lose that debate too, start another thread on it.

2. Indians are not forced to stay on reservations. They, like everyone else, are free to travel and seek employment. Be that in other parts of their state, a different state or heck even leaving the US in search of work.

Who claimed otherwise? I simply recognize that the lack of opportunities for human capital acquisition and formal employment in the communities where most are raised, as well as an ongoing degradation of territorial rights, are all contributors to their unemployment or wage slavery.

[Agnapostate]

And go ahead and make whatever post you want so that Guffer and skurty can 'thank' it. It's actually quite amusing to me that they thank every post in opposition to mine, no matter how weak its content.