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    Default Psychology of money and taxation

    When people invented currency, it was to create something that everyone agreed would have a standard value (eliminating the frustration of a barter system). A dollar is supposed to be worth the same to me as it’s worth to Noir or to Warren Buffet.

    That’s how the system is supposed to work. Unfortunately, there are some things it fails to take into account. The most significant thing is: the worth of a dollar depends on the number of dollars you already have. Let’s consider a few examples.

    Suppose you’re broke and homeless (through no fault of your own; let’s ignore the politics for the moment), and you haven’t eaten in a few days. A stranger walking by gives you ten bucks. That ten bucks is going to be extremely valuable to you. It will help you survive one more day and give you enough energy to try to improve your situation.

    Now let’s suppose you work at a gas station, making ten bucks an hour by sitting behind the register and making sure that nobody steals the candy bars. You do this for 100 hours and get paid $1,000. That thousand bucks is also going to be very real to you, because it’s supposedly the equivalent of giving over 100 boring (and maybe dangerous) hours of your life in order to make a profit for someone else. So you’ll be understandably annoyed when the government wants to take a big chunk of it.

    Here’s another example. Suppose you get a big client to sign a significant contract or purchase order with your business: big enough for them to hand you a six figure check. Maybe you’ve done this in your career. Does that money seem valuable to you? Better question, does that money, dollar for dollar, seem as valuable to you as in the last two examples?

    It doesn’t.

    I can attest to this: when you deposit that check, it seems like you’re depositing Monopoly money. Buy a car with that money, and it doesn’t really feel like your car. People who deal in transactions of this size eventually get used to it, but it’s still nothing like “reality” as most people understand it. It’s always like playing with fantasy money in a fantasy world.

    People have understood this psychological effect for well over a century now, and as a result, governments began instituting progressive tax systems to account for it. As long as these systems know where the “point of diminishing returns” is for the value of money, they make perfect sense.

    Let’s look at the modern U.S. as an example. Can anyone in this country spend more than $700,000 per year without intentionally wasting money? Almost certainly not. It takes a tremendous amount of time, effort, and planning to spend $700,000. If your portfolio rakes in an additional $5 million, how valuable to you is it, really?

    This scenario shows us something else about the world’s wealthiest people that most of the rest of the world has no clue about. The truly wealthy don’t pursue money. To them, money is nothing beyond a way of keeping score when they want to compete with one another. They certainly don’t use it to shop. In fact, most of them aren’t very interested in acquiring more things to own. They prefer to find more things (and people) to control, instead. This viewpoint actually makes a great deal of sense, by the way. When you own things, someone else can destroy them, steal them, or use them against you. On the other hand, when you control things, you get all the benefits with far fewer headaches.

    So when we talk about cutting taxes for households making $100,000 or $200,000, I’m fine with that. It’s when people start talking about cutting taxes for those making $1,000,000 a year that I start objecting. There’s no need for it: as I’ve just shown you, this money is rarely put back into the economy. The richest Americans will still be able to play the same games, just with lower scores.
    All conservatives are such from personal defects. They have been effeminated by position or nature, born halt and blind, through luxury of their parents, and can only, like invalids, act on the defensive.
    -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    I could spend $700,000 on two cars.
    “… the greatest detractor from high performance is fear: fear that you are not prepared, fear that you are in over your head, fear that you are not worthy, and ultimately, fear of failure. If you can eliminate that fear—not through arrogance or just wishing difficulties away, but through hard work and preparation—you will put yourself in an incredibly powerful position to take on the challenges you face" - Pete Carroll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmp View Post
    I could spend $700,000 on two cars.
    I said, "without intentionally wasting money."

    But on the subject of cars, would you care to take a guess on what the most popular model is for the wealthiest Americans?

    It's Ford. And the second most popular is Cadillac.
    All conservatives are such from personal defects. They have been effeminated by position or nature, born halt and blind, through luxury of their parents, and can only, like invalids, act on the defensive.
    -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    Can anyone in this country spend more than $700,000 per year...
    Well I see you've never bought a Yacht or a private Jet. And that's not wasted money. Don't believe it? Count the folks that make a living and support family's building either. Ain't capitalism great? !!!!
    UNITED STATES ARMY AVIATION

    Above the Best

    Why the Hell should I have to press “1” for ENGLISH?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. P View Post
    Well I see you've never bought a Yacht or a private Jet. And that's not wasted money. Don't believe it? Count the folks that make a living and support family's building either.
    A lot fewer people who can easily afford yachts and private jets aren't buying them anymore, either. Why? It goes back to what I said about owning vs. controlling. Owning one of those things is a huge pain in the ass.

    The rich aren't stupid; they've become well aware of this. Most people who want to use one of these things today will just charter one. Those folks who make their living by building yachts are supported mostly by the charter business. So yeah, capitalism still works out.
    All conservatives are such from personal defects. They have been effeminated by position or nature, born halt and blind, through luxury of their parents, and can only, like invalids, act on the defensive.
    -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palin Rider View Post

    Let’s look at the modern U.S. as an example. Can anyone in this country spend more than $700,000 per year without intentionally wasting money? Almost certainly not. It takes a tremendous amount of time, effort, and planning to spend $700,000. If your portfolio rakes in an additional $5 million, how valuable to you is it, really?
    You don't like successful people do you? Do you consider donations to charity "spending" or "intentionally wasting"? I know many millionaires, multi millionaires, and only one billionaire so far, that donate more that $700K in a year ........and if I had $700k to work on getting down to zero I could find a way that didn't onlty benefit myself and my famiy, but everyone I came into contact with. Natonal building would be one of my favs...go to Tahiti and build a school or library, hospital, etc. I do believe the value of the money is directly related to the good that you cab do with ut to improve others lives when mt direct needs have been met.
    If the freedom of speech is taken away
    then dumb and silent we may be led,
    like sheep to the slaughter.


    George Washington (1732-1799) First President of the USA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palin Rider View Post
    I said, "without intentionally wasting money."

    But on the subject of cars, would you care to take a guess on what the most popular model is for the wealthiest Americans?

    It's Ford. And the second most popular is Cadillac.
    It wouldn't be a waste. Have you SEEN a Rolls in person?

    What does 'most popular' mean? Who are 'the wealthiest' Americans?
    “… the greatest detractor from high performance is fear: fear that you are not prepared, fear that you are in over your head, fear that you are not worthy, and ultimately, fear of failure. If you can eliminate that fear—not through arrogance or just wishing difficulties away, but through hard work and preparation—you will put yourself in an incredibly powerful position to take on the challenges you face" - Pete Carroll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrskurtsprincess View Post
    You don't like successful people do you? Do you consider donations to charity "spending" or "intentionally wasting"? I know many millionaires, multi millionaires, and only one billionaire so far, that donate more that $700K in a year ........and if I had $700k to work on getting down to zero I could find a way that didn't onlty benefit myself and my famiy, but everyone I came into contact with. Natonal building would be one of my favs...go to Tahiti and build a school or library, hospital, etc. I do believe the value of the money is directly related to the good that you cab do with ut to improve others lives when mt direct needs have been met.
    Either you totally missed the point or you're just trying to spin my statement into something it never was.

    So, to be clear, I'm talking about the money someone spends on themselves and on their immediate families when I refer to that $700K. It it possible to spend more than that on yourself and your family in a year? Yes, but not without a considerable amount of time and effort, which almost no one would want to bother with.

    Apart from which, I'm sure you know there's a fairly low cap on how much you can deduct from your taxes when you donate to charity. The rest is between you and your god.

    Quote Originally Posted by dmp View Post
    It wouldn't be a waste. Have you SEEN a Rolls in person?
    Many times. You're trying to tell me a Rolls is NOT an extravagance?

    What does 'most popular' mean? Who are 'the wealthiest' Americans?
    "Most popular" usually means the greatest number owned. For these stats, I think the "wealthiest" were the top 1%, but if you REALLY care that much, I can go back and dig for the link for you.
    All conservatives are such from personal defects. They have been effeminated by position or nature, born halt and blind, through luxury of their parents, and can only, like invalids, act on the defensive.
    -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palin Rider View Post
    Many times. You're trying to tell me a Rolls is NOT an extravagance?


    "Most popular" usually means the greatest number owned. For these stats, I think the "wealthiest" were the top 1%, but if you REALLY care that much, I can go back and dig for the link for you.
    If one works hard and wants an extravagance or 30 or 100, why not? While it might not be how I'd spend my money, who are you or anyone else to decide my extravagances?


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    If one works hard and wants an extravagance or 30 or 100, why not? While it might not be how I'd spend my money, who are you or anyone else to decide my extravagances?
    Don't be ridiculous: I never so much as hinted that someone should "decide" other people's extravagances.

    (The whole purpose of the phrase "intentionally wasting money" was to come up with a reasonable amount that most people would have a hard time spending beyond.)
    All conservatives are such from personal defects. They have been effeminated by position or nature, born halt and blind, through luxury of their parents, and can only, like invalids, act on the defensive.
    -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palin Rider View Post
    Many times. You're trying to tell me a Rolls is NOT an extravagance?

    Not to some people. Your measures are highly subjective. That's my point. Are my cars extravagant?

    One day I was sitting at a car meeting surrounded by exotics. I lamented to a friend "Geesh...I want a cool car someday." He got sort of annoyed. "You HAVE cars." "But not like these..."I said. "It's not like you drive a fucking FOCUS..."

    To some people I'm successfully - even well off. I'm making probably 50% of what some of my neighbors make. To them...meh...not so much. That's the problem with liberals - the problem I think you have in this case - you're placing short-sighted and limited brands on what rich means.

    "Most popular" usually means the greatest number owned. For these stats, I think the "wealthiest" were the top 1%, but if you REALLY care that much, I can go back and dig for the link for you.

    Usually to whom? In the instance of your claimed data?
    “… the greatest detractor from high performance is fear: fear that you are not prepared, fear that you are in over your head, fear that you are not worthy, and ultimately, fear of failure. If you can eliminate that fear—not through arrogance or just wishing difficulties away, but through hard work and preparation—you will put yourself in an incredibly powerful position to take on the challenges you face" - Pete Carroll.

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    perhaps people earning a million dollars and more (through no effort of their own; let’s ignore the politics for the moment), should be buying fords for homeless people (through no fault of their own; let’s ignore the politics for the moment) and of course a bloated government bureaucracy can decide on who gets what

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmp View Post
    Not to some people. Your measures are highly subjective. That's my point.
    There's a huge difference between "subjective" and "unreasonable." You seem fairly desperate to spin one into the other.

    Is it possible to come up with a yearly dollar figure beyond which hardly anyone could spend on themselves and be COMPLETELY objective about it? Probably not; there are just too many variables.

    So, if you think my figure is unreasonable, why don't you suggest another one?

    Usually to whom? In the instance of your claimed data?
    Usually when any statistical study uses the term "most popular," they're talking about the best selling or the largest number owned, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by MtnBiker View Post
    perhaps people earning a million dollars and more (through no effort of their own; let’s ignore the politics for the moment), should be buying fords for homeless people (through no fault of their own; let’s ignore the politics for the moment) and of course a bloated government bureaucracy can decide on who gets what
    Sarcasm isn't your strength, but I'll ignore your politics for the moment.
    All conservatives are such from personal defects. They have been effeminated by position or nature, born halt and blind, through luxury of their parents, and can only, like invalids, act on the defensive.
    -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    What am I thinking, Fords??. It should be Chevy Volts, that would be a much better handout from government bureaucrats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MtnBiker View Post
    What am I thinking, Fords??. It should be Chevy Volts, that would be a much better handout from government bureaucrats.
    Still ignoring the wandering didactics (too insipid to qualify as "politics")
    All conservatives are such from personal defects. They have been effeminated by position or nature, born halt and blind, through luxury of their parents, and can only, like invalids, act on the defensive.
    -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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