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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightTrain View Post
    No, you're off base, Revel.

    This exact scenario you've presented me with is precisely why I burned out with debating for a few years.

    Jim and I and a few others hashed and rehashed the same debates hundreds of times at the previous board, and the board before that one with a new guy that would come in with the same tired, incorrect timelines, kooky conspiracy theories and info.

    I can probably find some of my old posts and copy it here for you - there is nothing new that you've said above that I haven't already addressed a hundred times and I don't need the practice anymore.

    I'll look into it tomorrow.
    I will concur as well. I haven't stepped in as I know it'll turn into another 2 week posting-fest which I haven't the time for. I went through days of reading all the reports from the UN. While they may not have found anything before the invasion, they made it very clear that Iraq refused to fully cooperate until the very end, and that plenty of chemical weapons that were accounted for in 1998 were still unaccounted for and Iraq refused to address their whereabouts.

    And while some would like to now, 7 years later, change the reasoning we went into Iraq, you can't change the past and facts. 12 years of repeatedly ignoring resolutions, ignoring no fly zones and firing on us, claiming to have WMD's themselves, refusal to address what they owed Kuwait... basically, in a nutshell, they disregarded nearly every aspect of every resolution.

    And I'm sorry, simply stating "well there are other countries who ignore resolutions" is not an answer, it's a lame excuse in a debate. Each country is different, and I really don't see other countries that were as dangerous as Iraq, nor other countries proclaiming themselves to have WMD's that have illegally used them on their own citizens in the past.

    And use this reply as a beginning for a search if you like, but I'm not debating 7 year old crap with people who still don't take the time to read all the paperwork but want to watch every youtube video they can find. My debate is my past posts should anyone have the desire to search the hundreds of posts I've made on this subject, both here and at USMB.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

  2. #32
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    SO the inspector Blix in the video, in the UN, speaking BEFORE the war, telling the world that there were no WMDs is a tinfoil conspiracy theory?

    And his video testimony to the same and more before the British inquiry is conspiracy theory?

    HE made his inspections reports up but BUSH, Blair and there intel sources were right, even though all they can find is a few stray canisters? And the same solid intel sources told Bush, Blair and crew that TONS of items went to Syria. We are suppose to believe that. That's not theory? And it's not important that terrorist could get them from there now it seems.


    You brought up Blix as credible.

    ANd you've listened to the interview with Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski, formerly of the Pentagon Middle East desk in the years running up to war, and have an alternative and true account of what she saw and heard? Therefore making her a liar or a very misguided soldier.

    Please point me to the evidence and testimony, don't just try to dismiss it because it doesn't fit into you current world view.

    Kathianne if you have time please listen to what Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski has to say then you can straiten me out.


    But it seems that BLIX was clear, Iraq had No WMD's or problem weapons to speak of and there was No lack of Cooperating to speak of. Nothing that justified war. Nothing that justified what we now KNOW is the mistaken idea (lie) that there were WMD's that threatened the any country let alone the U.S.
    Last edited by revelarts; 10-27-2010 at 07:22 AM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  3. #33
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    Rev - how about actually reading the final UN report before the war, in its entirety, before making incorrect assumptions? You can find the entire report, but here's an excerpt:

    UN Chief Inspector Hans Blix, on 14 February 2003, presented a report to the Security Council. Blix gave an update of the situation in Iraq, and he stated that the Iraqis were now more proactive in their cooperation. He also rebutted some of the arguments proposed by Powell. Blix questioned the interpretations of the satellite images put forward by Powell, and stated that alternate interpretations of the satellite images were credible. He also stated that the Iraqis have in fact never received early warning of the inspectors visiting any sites (an allegation made by Powell during his presentation). International Atomic Energy Agency Director General Mohammed ElBaradei also said that he did not believe the Iraqis have a nuclear weapons program, unlike what Powell had claimed.

    This report of February 14 and the protests of February 16 appear to have created reluctance in some of the members of the Security Council over the proposed war on Iraq. A second resolution was being drafted with the intention that it would find Iraq in "material breach" and the "serious consequences" of Resolution 1441 should be implemented.

    Blix expressed skepticism over Iraq's claims to have destroyed its stockpiles of anthrax and VX nerve agent in Time magazine[citation needed]. Blix said he found it "a bit odd" that Iraq, with "one of the best-organized regimes in the Arab world," would claim to have no records of the destruction of these illegal substances. "I don't see that they have acquired any credibility," Blix said. "There has to be solid evidence of everything, and if there is not evidence, or you can't find it, I simply say, 'Sorry, I don't find any evidence,' and I cannot guarantee or recommend any confidence.
    If you take the time to read his entire report, you will see that Iraq NEVER fully cooperated and the UN was NEVER able to fully inspect or verify weapons that were tagged in 1998 and missing as of 2001.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    I will concur as well. I haven't stepped in as I know it'll turn into another 2 week posting-fest which I haven't the time for. I went through days of reading all the reports from the UN. While they may not have found anything before the invasion, they made it very clear that Iraq refused to fully cooperate until the very end, and that plenty of chemical weapons that were accounted for in 1998 were still unaccounted for and Iraq refused to address their whereabouts.

    And while some would like to now, 7 years later, change the reasoning we went into Iraq, you can't change the past and facts. 12 years of repeatedly ignoring resolutions, ignoring no fly zones and firing on us, claiming to have WMD's themselves, refusal to address what they owed Kuwait... basically, in a nutshell, they disregarded nearly every aspect of every resolution.

    And I'm sorry, simply stating "well there are other countries who ignore resolutions" is not an answer, it's a lame excuse in a debate. Each country is different, and I really don't see other countries that were as dangerous as Iraq, nor other countries proclaiming themselves to have WMD's that have illegally used them on their own citizens in the past.

    And use this reply as a beginning for a search if you like, but I'm not debating 7 year old crap with people who still don't take the time to read all the paperwork but want to watch every youtube video they can find. My debate is my past posts should anyone have the desire to search the hundreds of posts I've made on this subject, both here and at USMB.
    so you tube video of the people who wrote the reports is somehow suspect?

    that's lame.

    Colin Powell and Condi rice said that Iraq was contained in 2001

    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/y1X-I-38lrU?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/y1X-I-38lrU?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>


    then SUDEENLY HE a Horrible threat? Did we find anything new on him after 9-11. no. nothing real anyway.
    this is one of Lt Col Kwatoski's point. the intel didn't change. She read the intel personally. at least as much as you DMP. maybe a bit more with her top secret clearances don't you think.

    and here's his fairly honest response to this whole thing after the fact from Colin Powell
    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FejQH_VCB24?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FejQH_VCB24?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
    Last edited by revelarts; 10-27-2010 at 07:43 AM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    so you tube video of the people who wrote the reports is somehow suspect?

    that's lame.

    Colin Powell and Condi rice said that Iraq was contained

    <object height="385" width="480">


    <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/y1X-I-38lrU?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="385" width="480"></object>

    and here's his fairly honest response to this whole thing after the fact from Colin Powell
    <object height="385" width="480">


    <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FejQH_VCB24?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="385" width="480"></object>
    Hans Blix wrote the report, not Condi or Powell. Again Try reading his report in it's entirety, and all the prior reports leading up to the final report in Feb. of '03.

    Your constant barrage of Youtube videos are what is lame. A 60 second clip does not outweigh official documentation from UN inspectors.

    Again:

    Another matter and one of great significance, is that many proscribed weapons and items are not accounted for. To take an example, a document which Iraq provided suggested to us that some 1,000 tons of chemical agent were unaccounted for. One must not jump to the conclusion that they exist; however, that possibility is also not excluded. If they exist, they should be presented for destruction. If they do not exist, credible evidence to that effect should be presented.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

  6. #36
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    Not sure why I bother to give in when I state I won't debate things that have been debated for 7 years. Anyone who disagrees with what I've typed is delusional and refuses to read the final UN report to the president, in its entirety. I took tens of hours over the years reading every report possible, from resolutions to updates to UN reports. You simply cannot change history and proclaim this evidence does not exist because of a youtube video. I let the paperwork stand, and debate for me.

    Dismissed and have fun playing in the sandbox full of tinfoil!
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    Rev - how about actually reading the final UN report before the war, in its entirety, before making incorrect assumptions? You can find the entire report, but here's an excerpt:

    If you take the time to read his entire report, you will see that Iraq NEVER fully cooperated and the UN was NEVER able to fully inspect or verify weapons that were tagged in 1998 and missing as of 2001.

    Did you watch the video of Blix testimony in before the U.N. and later in England? He CONCLUDES that IRAQ was not as organized as he ASSUMED, that they could not produce information that they didn't have.


    And If you read my post ,I keep reminding you that
    Full cooperating was never a justification for war.
    the sure presence of WMD was.

    the lack of a paper trail of old bio/chem of a ally turned enemy that was "contained and unable to project against even his neighbors" in 2001. is in 2003 a deadly threat worth going to war over.
    I disagree.
    Last edited by revelarts; 10-27-2010 at 07:58 AM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    Not sure why I bother to give in when I state I won't debate things that have been debated for 7 years. Anyone who disagrees with what I've typed is delusional and refuses to read the final UN report to the president, in its entirety. I took tens of hours over the years reading every report possible, from resolutions to updates to UN reports. You simply cannot change history and proclaim this evidence does not exist because of a youtube video. I let the paperwork stand, and debate for me.

    Dismissed and have fun playing in the sandbox full of tinfoil!
    So you know more than people that worked in the pentagon and inspector Blix

    OK Jim.

    I'm delusional?
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Did you watch the video of Blix testimony in before the U.N. and later in England? He CONCLUDES that IRAQ was not as organized as he ASSUMED, that they could not produce information that they didn't have.
    And If you read my post ,I keep reminding you that
    Full cooperating was never a justification for war.
    the sure presence of WMD was.

    the lack of a paper trail of old bio/chem of a ally turned enemy that was "contained and unable to project against even his neighbors" in 2001. is in 2003 a deadly threat worth going to war over.
    I disagree.[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    So you know more than people that worked in the pentagon and inspector Blix

    OK Jim.

    I'm delusional?
    Yes, delusional and apparently a conspiracy theorist who is dumb enough to believe a bunch of clips from various sites and youtube instead of taking the time to read the official reports up until the day we entered Iraq. Not my fault your too damn lazy to read and would rather watch TV.

    Adios, done with you now. But I'm sure another frequent shopper in the tinfoil aisle will be along soon to comfort you.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    ...to believe a bunch of clips from various sites and youtube instead of taking the time to read the official reports up until the day we entered Iraq. Not my fault your too damn lazy to read and would rather watch TV...

    So if it's written down it's true and if the person who wrote it is on tv testifying for 6 hours explaining what he wrote it's false.

    and if you don't like what they say it's tinfoil conspiracy.

    I see.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  11. #41
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    Okay, Revel, I will indulge you and repost a few items of mine from years ago.

    While I have serious reservations as to whether I'm wasting my time, you were polite. Your beliefs about jet contrails being a government program to poison us and your posts about the government being behind 9/11 makes me think this is a waste of time and you're going to believe what you believe despite facts, but I will try.

    First, here are a few quotes from Democrats regarding Saddam. You may recognize a few of them. This should serve to dispel the misunderstanding you appear to have that Bush trumped up intel regarding Saddam's Iraq :

    Quote Originally Posted by NightTrain
    "One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
    President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

    "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
    President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

    "Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
    Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

    "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
    Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

    "We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
    Letter to President Clinton, signed by Senators, Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998

    "Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
    Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

    "Hussein has chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
    Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

    "There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of an illicit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
    Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, Dec, 5, 2001

    "We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
    Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

    "We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
    Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

    "Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
    Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

    "We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
    Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

    "The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
    Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

    "I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
    Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

    "There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
    Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

    "He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do"
    Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

    "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
    Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002


    "We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
    Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

    "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime.. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ..."
    Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23, 2003
    Last edited by NightTrain; 10-27-2010 at 10:56 AM.

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    Here's a good article that Jim posted back in the day, as well. It's a good read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimnyc
    Yesterday I was talking to a friend of mine about Saddam Hussein and she said in part,

    FOH: ...I just don't agree with being lied to in order to take (Saddam) out.

    John Hawkins: What lie do you think you were told?

    FOH: That we were in imminent danger of being destroyed by weapons of mass destruction.

    My friend isn't very political, but some left-winger apparently got to her and convinced her that Bush was lying about WMD. While her belief is erroneous, it's understandable that some people might buy into the idea that "Bush lied about WMD" because they're not political junkies who remember every detail of the build-up to the war. That's why it's so important for conservatives to remind people of what really happened even as the left tries to rewrite history.

    To begin with, this argument that Bush kept emphasizing that we were in "imminent danger" can be quickly and easily disposed of. That's because the whole concept behind making preemptive strikes runs counter to the idea of waiting until a threat is "imminent". As Bush said in his 2003 State of the Union speech,

    "Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option. (Applause.)"

    Secondly, while Bush certainly made it very clear that he believed that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, that was not the sole reason Bush gave for invading Iraq. To the contrary, Bush hit several themes consistently in the year before the invasion of Iraq including WMD, Saddam's violation of 17 United Nations resolutions (which did not deal with WMD alone), Hussein's mistreatment of his people, & his cooperation with terrorists. To prove that I'm not just blowing smoke, let me go back to Bush's widely covered Sept 12, 2002 speech to the United Nations General Assembly. In that speech which made front page news all around the world, Bush explained what Saddam needed to do to avoid war. If the anti-war critics are right and Bush predicated his whole case on Saddam Hussein having weapons of mass destruction, it would be logical to think that Bush simply told Saddam to get rid of his WMD. But to the contrary, Bush said the following,

    "If the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will immediately and unconditionally forswear, disclose, and remove or destroy all weapons of mass destruction, long-range missiles, and all related material.

    If the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will immediately end all support for terrorism and act to suppress it, as all states are required to do by U.N. Security Council resolutions.

    If the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will cease persecution of its civilian population, including Shi'a, Sunnis, Kurds, Turkomans, and others, again as required by Security Council resolutions.

    If the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will release or account for all Gulf War personnel whose fate is still unknown. It will return the remains of any who are deceased, return stolen property, accept liability for losses resulting from the invasion of Kuwait, and fully cooperate with international efforts to resolve these issues, as required by Security Council resolutions.

    If the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will immediately end all illicit trade outside the oil-for-food program. It will accept U.N. administration of funds from that program, to ensure that the money is used fairly and promptly for the benefit of the Iraqi people."

    Ok, so we've now shown that Bush wasn't claiming the threat was "imminent" and that Bush's case against Iraq wasn't built exclusively on showing that Saddam had WMD. Even if that's so, we haven't found the WMD yet. Doesn't that mean Bush "lied"?

    No, it doesn't. What you have to understand is almost EVERYBODY in the know thought Saddam had WMD. For example, just listen to what "Rep. Jane Harman, D-Calif., ranking member of the House intelligence Committee" had to say about this subject,

    "Some are suggesting, certainly, that (Saddam) destroyed the weapons after 1998 or maybe even sooner. It's just counterintuitive that he would have done that. His would have been the greatest intelligence hoax of all time, fooling every intelligence agency, three presidents, five secretaries of defense and the entire world into thinking he still had the weapons."

    Furthermore, Harman wasn't the only Democrat who felt that way. There are many examples I could cite, but here's one from the current golden girl of the Democratic Party, Hillary Clinton, making virtually the same case to the American people that Bush did on weapons on mass destruction,

    "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." -- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

    Since Bush's position on whether Saddam had WMD was indistinguishable from that of most of the VIPs in the Democratic Party, no intellectually honest person can claim that "Bush lied about WMD" unless he also believes that the majority of the US government on both sides of the aisle, along with intelligence agencies and leaders from many other nations, also lied about Hussein's WMD.

    At worst, those who are knowledgable about the situation and who aren't blind partisans can say that Bush's allegation that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction was in error. But to be truthful, we can't even definitively say that's the case yet. I tell you that because there are a variety of theories about what happened to the weapons of mass destruction. Some people believe that the WMD have been; shipped to Lebanon or Syria, destroyed at some point, hidden and not yet found, carried away in the looting, given to terrorists, not built for years by scientists afraid to tell Saddam the truth, or some combination thereof. At this point, it's difficult to rule any of those possibilities out. But as David Kay pointed out in his interim report, Saddam at the very least intended to procure WMD,

    "Saddam, at least as judged by those scientists and other insiders who worked in his military-industrial programs, had not given up his aspirations and intentions to continue to acquire weapons of mass destruction. Even those senior officials we have interviewed who claim no direct knowledge of any on-going prohibited activities readily acknowledge that Saddam intended to resume these programs whenever the external restrictions were removed. Several of these officials acknowledge receiving inquiries since 2000 from Saddam or his sons about how long it would take to either restart CW production or make available chemical weapons."

    So we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Hussein once had and used weapons of mass destruction. Moreover, at the time of the invasion, Saddam either had WMD or planned to acquire them. So all this quibbling over WMD is in a very important sense, irrelevant. Worst case scenario, it's like we stopped a serial killer before he could kill again as opposed to actually catching him with a body in the basement. In any case, sensible people who are concerned about what an anti-American tyrant like Saddam might have done with his WMD should be happy that the "Butcher of Baghdad" is now permanently out of business.

  13. #43
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    Nighttrain, I appreciate you taking the time to dig up your old post.
    And that you can don't mind having a conversation about the details with someone whose views you don't agree with.

    However I've never said that the gov't did 9-11 What i've said is that it looks like there where explosives in building 7. Witnesses and demo experts have concluded as much and I for 1 can't find any significant reason to dismiss them to date. They and I could be wrong.

    Chem trails, I'm not going to the wall with that issue at all but again, to me there is something to look at. i used to dismiss the idea out of hand but now, well, juries still out IMO.

    Now concerning the meat of your post. Uh, I'm not a democrat, Last time I voted democrat was for Carter in 1980. And frankly it really doesn't make a difference to me if it's democrat or a republican making the assertions. Bad intel is bad intel. I wanted to believe Bush when he wanted to go to war with Iraq, until i started reading ALL the reports and not just the ones that supported him and the democrats frightened that they wouldn't look butch enough.
    People here think I'm hard on Bush, you should have heard me when Clinton was in office. Call me a conspiracy theorist too. well When Clinton was in office i looked into the Mena Arkansas drug issue. I'm convinced that the Clintons and J Elders knew about all of that and more.
    Remember Juanita Broaddrick the Clinton rape victim not many people do. But a much more serious story than the poor intern.
    Remember Vince foster. Don't get me started.

    Look, at best, the Bush, Cheney, the Clinton, Gore, Kerry etc. all were working off of Incomplete and inaccurate reports. The current facts bear that out.

    Many here have admitted that the U.N. inspectors said that BEFORE the war started they found ZERO EVIDENCE of WMD's.

    But several here have stressed that Saddam was not FULLY compliant with the inspections.
    I concede that point somewhat.
    But the U.N. Inspector Blix said BEFORE and after the war began that It was not significant.
    And I point out that even it he didn't FULLY comply, that it was no reason to go to war. It was Definitely not the reason we were given. ANd in Fact Saddam was not a threat to the U.S..

    But giving the fullest benefit of the doubt, At the time, It may have been debatable for those outside and biased toward the right to come to a clear conclusion one way or another.

    However, as it turns out Ritter was right. Blix was right but suspicious, the CIA was wrong, Colon Powell says if he knew what he knows now he would not have gone to war.

    I get the impression that you guy STILL think it OK to Invade a country becuase they don't comply FULLY with U.N. resolutions.

    I get the impression that
    You Guys are convinced that the intel was still good. Even though Powell and his chief of staff both say that many of the intel sources the CIA feed him for the U.N. speech where "burnt" or no good. And many in the CIA knew it at the time.

    OK, Whatever, I hear your assertions but i don't see the EVIDENCE.

    And you don't believe Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski U.S. Air Force, 1983-2003. Who worked in the Pentagon Middle East desk and saw the real intel at a top secret level. You have listen to her correct? Your not just saying shes wrong without giving her a hearing right?

    last point,
    I didn't start this thread, trying to dig up 7 year old issues
    Kathianne posted the thread asserting that WMD and the intel of the Bush Blair and the CIA was right. Asking that those who didn't like the torture info found on wikileaks would comment on the few canisters and home chemistry sets as well. So here I am.
    Last edited by revelarts; 10-27-2010 at 12:59 PM.
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    Wow, what a trip down Memory Lane. Not relevant, but funny nevertheless for the Old Crew - and this is where we first met MtnBiker :

    Quote Originally Posted by NightTrain
    Great post, Eric!

    lmao, Mtn Biker, welcome to the board!

    I wonder what Spillmind will say about this? Hmmmm....


    Spillmind : "And 83% of all Iraqis polled stated they need a bong hit."
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Now concerning the meat of your post. Uh, I'm not a democrat, Last time I voted democrat was for Carter in 1980. And frankly it really doesn't make a difference to me if it's democrat or a republican making the assertions. Bad intel is bad intel. I wanted to believe Bush when he wanted to go to war with Iraq, until i started reading ALL the reports and not just the ones that supported him and the democrats frightened that they wouldn't look butch enough.
    People here think I'm hard on Bush, you should have heard me when Clinton was in office. Call me a conspiracy theorist too. well When Clinton was in office i looked into the Mena Arkansas drug issue. I'm convinced that the Clintons and J Elders knew about all of that and more.
    Remember Juanita Broaddrick the Clinton rape victim not many people do. But a much more serious story than the poor intern.
    Remember Vince foster. Don't get me started.
    Good enough, and I didn't think you were a Democrat. But when you say things like :

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts
    BUSH: "Where are those weapons of Mass Destruction. not over here, no Not over here. they've got to be around here somewhere... OH Well. ...chortle chortle "
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts
    Not quite the potential "mushroom cloud" Bush and Rice warned us about. Or high tech Mobile BIO TRUCKS units General Powell talked about.
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts
    But Bush and Blair "fixed", "misread" or "were mislead by" other intel and told us otherwise.
    I won't go on with this, the point that I wanted to get across to you was that Bush has been hammered and falsely accused of "trumping up intelligence" when that is clearly not the case.

    There is a very long list of people whose job it was to be informed all agreeing that there was a very serious problem with Saddam's WMDs way before Bush ever took office within the U.S. Government.

    Regardless of party affiliation, conservative or liberal, the consensus was that he had them, he was developing them, and he was trying to improve them.

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts
    Look, at best, the Bush, Cheney, the Clinton, Gore, Kerry etc. all were working off of Incomplete and inaccurate reports. The current facts bear that out.
    Saddam had them and had used them prior. Fact.

    That takes care of what the USA thought, next we'll revisit what the international community thought about the situation.

    I'm working this point by point, so bear with me.

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