"Religious Tolerance" in EGYPT

[Noir]

No, here in the US people toss around molotov cocktails at the police pretty much after every major sporting event championship. The police are protected by full riot gear and shields, and they DO NOT throw stuff back at the "protesters". They simply keep backing them up until they disperse, and those dumb enough not to will likely get a baton to the legs, a bean bag to the chest or a nice numbing feeling from a taser. But you will NEVER see our police engaging in rock throwing or trading molotov cocktails with protesters. That simply makes matters worse and is the sign of shitty police work.

All of which points to thhe police not being well enough trained and disaplined. If the point if this thread is to point out that the Egyptian police need to train for riot situations more then fair enough, i agree. But i can't see much else beyond that.

[abso]

No, here in the US people toss around molotov cocktails at the police pretty much after every major sporting event championship. The police are protected by full riot gear and shields, and they DO NOT throw stuff back at the "protesters". They simply keep backing them up until they disperse, and those dumb enough not to will likely get a baton to the legs, a bean bag to the chest or a nice numbing feeling from a taser. But you will NEVER see our police engaging in rock throwing or trading molotov cocktails with protesters. That simply makes matters worse and is the sign of shitty police work.

and who said that the police threw molotov coctails at them, dont you are making some wrong assumtions here ???

[jimnyc]

Noir:

All of which points to thhe police not being well enough trained and disaplined. If the point if this thread is to point out that the Egyptian police need to train for riot situations more then fair enough, i agree. But i can't see much else beyond that.

Sure, police in Muslim countries consistently engaging in "attacks" with protesters is nothing to pay attention to. I suppose what happened to protesters in Iran when they gathered in the streets during elections was OK too.

Abso

and who said that the police threw molotov coctails at them, dont you are making some wrong assumtions here ???

YOU brought up the molotov cocktails, I simply replied in a manner showing how police in the US would NEVER do something like that - whereas police in Islamic lead countries will get down and dirty on the streets with protesters, maim them, throw rocks at them, shoot them, trample them.... I can post videos all day long if you deny this.

[Noir]

Sure, police in Muslim countries consistently engaging in "attacks" with protesters is nothing to pay attention to. I suppose what happened to protesters in Iran when they gathered in the streets during elections was OK too.

Sure pay attention, but no more than to any other countries, heck, police in Christian Northern Ireland regularly engaged in "attacks" on protesters. I guess you were up in arms back then at the lack of religious toleration.

From what i can see there was no deliberate attempt to kill the protestors or act in a way that would seem unique to the fact that they are acting against Christians, i.e. i think if this had been a riot with Muslims in Egypt the result would of bbeen much the same, and so this isn't really a thread about religious tolerance, but rather poorly trained riot police

[jimnyc]

Sure pay attention, but no more than to any other countries, heck, police in Christian Northern Ireland regularly engaged in "attacks" on protesters. I guess you were up in arms back then at the lack of religious toleration.

From what i can see there was no deliberate attempt to kill the protestors or act in a way that would seem unique to the fact that they are acting against Christians, i.e. i think if this had been a riot with Muslims in Egypt the result would of bbeen much the same, and so this isn't really a thread about religious tolerance, but rather poorly trained riot police

So you think the scenery would have been the same if this were Muslims putting up a mosque? LOL Keep dreaming!

[abso]

So you think the scenery would have been the same if this were Muslims putting up a mosque? LOL Keep dreaming!

believe me when i tell you this, the christians are treated very much better than muslims when it comes to the police.

muslims are often questioned and detained for any suspection of a terrorism related activity, and most of the detained muslims usualy are innocents

many years ago, my uncle was arrested and detained for suspection of joining a terrorist organization, while all he did was praying in the mosque everyday instead of praying in his house, and attended some religious lessons, but any muslims who attend a religious lesson in egypt is suspected in joining a terrorist activity or radical group, thats how muslims are treated in egypt, but christians never get arrested for such reasons.

yesterday i met an old friend of mine, we were in school together, he also was arrested and questioned by State Security which is something similar to NSA in usa, they questioned him just because he liked to attend religious lessons every friday, while he never was radical, and never was part of any radical activity.

[fj1200]

believe me when i tell you this, the christians are treated very much better than muslims when it comes to the police.

muslims are often questioned and detained for any suspection of a terrorism related activity, and most of the detained muslims usualy are innocents

Are you saying that Muslims are profiled in Egypt?

[abso]

Noir:


Abso

YOU brought up the molotov cocktails, I simply replied in a manner showing how police in the US would NEVER do something like that - whereas police in Islamic lead countries will get down and dirty on the streets with protesters, maim them, throw rocks at them, shoot them, trample them.... I can post videos all day long if you deny this.

yes, i brought up the molotov cocktails, but i said christians were using it on the police,not the opposite, and the problem is that its effective against them, because the riot police doesnt wear enough shields to protect them from fire, maybe the stones wont affect them much because of their shields, but the fire will.

and they didnt shoot the protestors, or there would be alot more than one dead protestor.

anyway, is the subject about the brutality of the police, or about the persecution of christians, if its about the brutality of the police, maybe you would have a valid point, but about the persecution of christians, you are totally wrong.

if muslims did the same as those christians, the police reaction would be alot more violent.

[jimnyc]

yes, i brought up the molotov cocktails, but i said christians were using it on the police,not the opposite, and the problem is that its effective against them, because the riot police doesnt wear enough shields to protect them from fire, maybe the stones wont affect them much because of their shields, but the fire will.

and they didnt shoot the protestors, or there would be alot more than one dead protestor.

anyway, is the subject about the brutality of the police, or about the persecution of christians, if its about the brutality of the police, maybe you would have a valid point, but about the persecution of christians, you are totally wrong.

if muslims did the same as those christians, the police reaction would be alot more violent.

My point about the "cocktails" was more to say - EVEN IF the protesters are tossing them at the police - at least here in the US - the police would not be throwing them back at them like it's some sort of tennis match. The police and SWAT teams are very serious most of the time, will come forward in riot gear and use different non-lethal tactics to disperse the crowds.

Getting THAT involved with protesters and having rock fights with them is dumb too. Police shouldn't be there to provoke as well as stop the problems.

As for persecuting christians, while maybe not AS problematic in Egypt, it sure as hell is an issue throughout a lot of Islamic territory.

[Kathianne]

There were concerns about the church being built weeks before this incident. The claim that it was something other than a church on the permit, seems a lie based on the previous article, covering just such permit.

Abso, I've no doubt the Egyptian police are profiling Muslims for terrorism, that shows a common sense missing in the West. The real prejudice though is obviously against the Christians, who are being persecuted, without cause.

[abso]

My point about the "cocktails" was more to say - EVEN IF the protesters are tossing them at the police - at least here in the US - the police would not be throwing them back at them like it's some sort of tennis match. The police and SWAT teams are very serious most of the time, will come forward in riot gear and use different non-lethal tactics to disperse the crowds.

Getting THAT involved with protesters and having rock fights with them is dumb too. Police shouldn't be there to provoke as well as stop the problems.

As for persecuting christians, while maybe not AS problematic in Egypt, it sure as hell is an issue throughout a lot of Islamic territory.

as i recall, the thread title was ""Religious Tolerance" in EGYPT".

anyway, you say not as problematic, which something i refuse, because i dont see any persecution for christians at all in egypt, if there is a persecution, it would be for muslims not christians.

while your argument is about the police efficiency and methods, are you talking about the religious persecution or the police methods ???

if you are talking about persecution, i would say that the same actions are taken with muslims when they riot, and more severe measures are often used on muslims.

but if you are talking about police measures then it wont be about religious tolerance which is the title for this subject, and i refuse to discuss any internal security affair of my country with any foreigner, so if you dont think that there is any religious persecution, then the matter is closed for me.

if the police measures are used to everyone without any discrimination to the race or color or religion, then its doesnt have anything to do with persecution of anyone, and that what happens in egypt, same measures applies to everyone, muslims and christians.

when i have a problem with my government i talk to them, not with other countries, i dont need other countries to interfer in my country's internal affairs, i respect the freedom of my country, and i wish that everyone would respect my stand.

[abso]

There were concerns about the church being built weeks before this incident. The claim that it was something other than a church on the permit, seems a lie based on the previous article, covering just such permit.

Abso, I've no doubt the Egyptian police are profiling Muslims for terrorism, that shows a common sense missing in the West. The real prejudice though is obviously against the Christians, who are being persecuted, without cause.

the christians are not being persecuted, they are the ones who started the riot, resisting the police, and refusing to stop building the illegal building, and burning cars, destroying puplic properties, and they all forgot that egypt is under martial law because of terrorism, and such riots are not allowed at all.

same measures are used with muslims when they make a riot so that was not a persecution.

you are calling me a liar !!!, i live in the country where the events happened, and you get your info from the media, and you think that you know the truth !!!

the license was just for an extension to the main church by adding a community service building, but it turned out that they were building a new church, so the mayor decided to stop the building because they didnt get a license to build a church, he was just applying the law which should be applied to everyone.

but it seems that they didnt think that the law will be applied on them, in a way they thought that they are above the law, or that when the building rise a little, the police will be helpless and will just let them go on with the building, but we have laws, and the laws doesnt allow them to just build anything they want without a proper license.

[Kathianne]

the christians are not being persecuted, they are the ones who started the riot, resisting the police, and refusing to stop building the illegal building, and burning cars, destroying puplic properties, and they all forgot that egypt is under martial law because of terrorism, and such riots are not allowed at all.

same measures are used with muslims when they make a riot so that was not a persecution.

you are calling me a liar !!!, i live in the country where the events happened, and you get your info from the media, and you think that you know the truth !!!

the license was just for an extension to the main church by adding a community service building, but it turned out that they were building a new church, so the mayor decided to stop the building because they didnt get a license to build a church, he was just applying the law which should be applied to everyone.

but it seems that they didnt think that the law will be applied on them, in a way they thought that they are above the law, or that when the building rise a little, the police will be helpless and will just let them go on with the building, but we have laws, and the laws doesnt allow them to just build anything they want without a proper license.

Slow down. I was NOT calling you a liar, from my first post on the incident as reported by Reuter's, I made clear that there may be a problem in the news reporting you are getting.

It's not illegal if the permit was issued at stated, early in November, before the accusation?

It's not just 'our media' that has problems.

I have no reason to call you a liar, believe me, if I thought that you wouldn't have to make a leap-I can be a bit blunt at times.

[abso]

Slow down. I was NOT calling you a liar, from my first post on the incident as reported by Reuter's, I made clear that there may be a problem in the news reporting you are getting.

It's not illegal if the permit was issued at stated, early in November, before the accusation?

It's not just 'our media' that has problems.

I have no reason to call you a liar, believe me, if I thought that you wouldn't have to make a leap-I can be a bit blunt at times.

also i am sure of my sources, but anyway, if the license was to build a church, why would the police stop the building ?

[Kathianne]

also i am sure of my sources, but anyway, if the license was to build a church, why would the police stop the building ?

Did you read the articles? If not, why bother responding? BTW, thanks for the apology about me NOT calling you a liar.

Actually, with the above post along with the many you've responded to me with, I must say that Jim's point about Muslim men's treatment of women is beginning to ring true. Here we call the misogynists.