Doctors Turn Against Abortion

[Pale Rider]

I can think of one, circumcision of male infants. It's not as difficult as the abortion issue in terms of medical procedures being ethically questionable but if anyone has any to add it would be useful.

But, there's no murder occuring from circumcision. There's been studies of men who have and haven't been circumcisized. Circumcisized men report getting more enjoyment out of sex, increased sensation, and less likely to contract an STD, inclucing AIDS, pointing out that circumcisized men are cleaner. So there are advantages to it.

But just to add, good for those doctors in europe.

[Guernicaa]

Personally, I think late-term abortions are disgusting...and its a good thing that they've been banned.
Not ethical at all, regardless of religion or what you believe.

However, when an abortion is done within the first month or even first trimester, I see no problem at all. It has no human characteristics in the first month. It's comparable to a small tumor.

Right-wingers need to start using more accurate language now that late-term abortions have been banned. Even before they were banned, the majority of abortions occurred within the first trimester, and do not require the "splitting open of the head" or the "vacuum suction". The right has now spun those terms to generalize ALL abortions. Simply said, it’s not the case.

[Hobbit]

Personally, I think late-term abortions are disgusting...and its a good thing that they've been banned.
Not ethical at all, regardless of religion or what you believe.

However, when an abortion is done within the first month or even first trimester, I see no problem at all. It has no human characteristics in the first month. It's comparable to a small tumor.

Right-wingers need to start using more accurate language now that late-term abortions have been banned. Even before they were banned, the majority of abortions occurred within the first trimester, and do not require the "splitting open of the head" or the "vacuum suction". The right has now spun those terms to generalize ALL abortions. Simply said, it’s not the case.

I don't get that, either, because the truth is just as gross. They often have to slice up the fetus while it's still alive to fit the thing through the birth canal without sending the woman into labor.

As for comparing a fetus to a tumor and how it has 'no human characteristics,' I don't buy it. The kid has a brain, a heart, can feel pain, and is, genetically, 100% human. I don't see how you can just flush the poor kid down a toilet.

[Guernicaa]

As for comparing a fetus to a tumor and how it has 'no human characteristics,' I don't buy it. The kid has a brain, a heart, can feel pain, and is, genetically, 100% human. I don't see how you can just flush the poor kid down a toilet.

Not in the first month. The brain has not developed enough to "feel pain". Its basically in a colma.
In fact its pretty much in a colma for most of the pregnancy.

[stephanie]

Not in the first month. The brain has not developed enough to "feel pain". Its basically in a colma.
In fact its pretty much in a colma for most of the pregnancy.

Such a lovely way to describe your own child..a tumor..

[Guernicaa]

Such a lovely way to describe your own child..a tumor..

Ohh I'm sorry...
A little clump of shit...I MEAN...cells.

[stephanie]

ugh..

[diuretic]

I happen to think 'gender reassignment' is pretty much an affront to all that is holy, too. Given time, I may be able to think of another, but there's nothing that stirs the emotions quite like abortion, because those of us who are against abortion see it as being murders for the sake of convenience, the same as if a mother shot her 3-year-old because she was tired of feeding him.

On gender re-assignment. I would have thought that is up to the individual. Would you ban someone from being allowed to have gender re-assignment surgery?

On abortion. Yes, it's an emotional argument. But emotions shouldn't be allowed to cloud the issues. And using terms like "murder" which have precise legal defintions are emotional ploys.

[diuretic]

But, there's no murder occuring from circumcision. There's been studies of men who have and haven't been circumcisized. Circumcisized men report getting more enjoyment out of sex, increased sensation, and less likely to contract an STD, inclucing AIDS, pointing out that circumcisized men are cleaner. So there are advantages to it.

But just to add, good for those doctors in europe.

On circumcision - there's an argument that it's unnecessary for male infants, that's what I was getting at. I was looking at it as a medical procedure that has ethical controversies surrounding it.

[diuretic]

Such a lovely way to describe your own child..a tumor..

Again, emotional misuse of language. Again it just confuses the discussion.

[Hobbit]

On gender re-assignment. I would have thought that is up to the individual. Would you ban someone from being allowed to have gender re-assignment surgery?

On abortion. Yes, it's an emotional argument. But emotions shouldn't be allowed to cloud the issues. And using terms like "murder" which have precise legal defintions are emotional ploys.

Nah. If the doctor's willing to be a whore and the patient's willing to be a retard, let 'em. I just think it's about as good an idea as shoving a hot poker up your sphincter, and I think those who think they need the surgury have a severe mental disorder (I've met them and it's scary).

Maybe 'murder' isn't the best word, but 'kill' just doesn't do it, as an aborted child is very deliberately, systematically, and intentionally killed. If you've got a better word, I'm all for it, but for now, I think I'll stick to murder.

[diuretic]

Nah. If the doctor's willing to be a whore and the patient's willing to be a retard, let 'em. I just think it's about as good an idea as shoving a hot poker up your sphincter, and I think those who think they need the surgury have a severe mental disorder (I've met them and it's scary).

Maybe 'murder' isn't the best word, but 'kill' just doesn't do it, as an aborted child is very deliberately, systematically, and intentionally killed. If you've got a better word, I'm all for it, but for now, I think I'll stick to murder.

Yes I'm a bit pedantic when it comes to the abortion debate. I don't even like the phrasing of "pro-choice" when it really means "pro right to seek an abortion". And "murder" means the deliberate and unlawful killing of a human being (in most jurisdictions), so in using the word "murder" you're assuming one of the contentious points about the development stages of the foetus (not that I have a clue about those stages).

[Hobbit]

Yes I'm a bit pedantic when it comes to the abortion debate. I don't even like the phrasing of "pro-choice" when it really means "pro right to seek an abortion". And "murder" means the deliberate and unlawful killing of a human being (in most jurisdictions), so in using the word "murder" you're assuming one of the contentious points about the development stages of the foetus (not that I have a clue about those stages).

Yeah, I don't like people calling it pro-choice or pro-life either, because that detracts from the actual meaning. Let's just call it pro-abortion and anti-abortion.

Once again, murder isn't the perfect word, but it's the best word I can find to describe it. I am assuming fetuses to be people, and by common law (whether it's on the books or not), deliberately killing a person is murder. You can only not think of abortion as murder by not thinking of a fetus as a person.

[diuretic]

Yeah, I don't like people calling it pro-choice or pro-life either, because that detracts from the actual meaning. Let's just call it pro-abortion and anti-abortion.

Once again, murder isn't the perfect word, but it's the best word I can find to describe it. I am assuming fetuses to be people, and by common law (whether it's on the books or not), deliberately killing a person is murder. You can only not think of abortion as murder by not thinking of a fetus as a person.

But that's my point. It's not "murder" if it was then no-one would be talking about pro-abortion/anti-abortion. Murder at common law or in statute is defined as killing a person. The fact that some legislatures, I think California is one, have enacted specific legislation to make a crime of a situation where a feotus is killed (eg situation where a pregnant woman is assaulted and miscarries) proves the point. Again, I'm fine with discussing a point but deliberately using loaded words and doing so inaccurately, isn't fair discussion.

No, I don't think of a foetus as a person. It is potentially a person, yes, but not there yet. In legal terms it's not a person until it's born.