So this is the Islam I am supposed to understand ?

[Fountainhead]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...9991C195DF.htm

Islamic courts that arrest and JAIL reporters for writing "unfavorable" stories about Islam and Mohammad

And we want to step backward into the 7th century ... because ... ?? ... anyone ... anyone ... ?? ...

[zefrendylia]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...9991C195DF.htm

Islamic courts that arrest and JAIL reporters for writing "unfavorable" stories about Islam and Mohammad

And we want to step backward into the 7th century ... because ... ?? ... anyone ... anyone ... ?? ...

You are confusing the issue of religion and government. The religion of Islam, like Christianity teaches peace, love, and tolerance. Both should be spiritual guides for enlightenment and how we treat our fellow human beings. Moderate as well as conservative Muslims do not condone violent jihad or violence. Although as we know, religion can be twisted by those who seek to use it for power and control. Both religions have for centuries been used to promote and even justify violence and aggression. I can give you dozens of examples if you want.

That being said, government is or should inherently be separate from religion. In certain countries around the world, religion has been intertwined with government to create what is know as theocracies. Theocracy, monarchy, autocracy, aristocracy, oligarchy etc. are all forms of government. The fact is, any county without democratic institutions , even a democracy can use religion to justify its means. Azerbaijan and most of the former Soviet republics are still very un-democratic yet because of massive foreign investment--are capitalist as well.

The point here is, although the authors are factually wrong about their arguments regarding Islam (I don't know what the entire article said), in a democratic society they should have freedom of speech and freedom of the press. Instead, the government of Azerbaijan is not democratic but authoritarian and will use any justification to maintain control and their way of thinking. Today it's criticism of the state religion, tomorrow it will be criticizing the government--and no totalitarian regime can have that.

[Nukeman]

You are confusing the issue of religion and government. The religion of Islam, like Christianity teaches peace, love, and tolerance. Both should be spiritual guides for enlightenment and how we treat our fellow human beings. Moderate as well as conservative Muslims do not condone violent jihad or violence. Although as we know, religion can be twisted by those who seek to use it for power and control. Both religions have for centuries been used to promote and even justify violence and aggression. I can give you dozens of examples if you want.

That being said, government is or should inherently be separate from religion. In certain countries around the world, religion has been intertwined with government to create what is know as theocracies. Theocracy, monarchy, autocracy, aristocracy, oligarchy etc. are all forms of government. The fact is, any county without democratic institutions , even a democracy can use religion to justify its means. Azerbaijan and most of the former Soviet republics are still very un-democratic yet because of massive foreign investment--are capitalist as well.

The point here is, although the authors are factually wrong about their arguments regarding Islam (I don't know what the entire article said), in a democratic society they should have freedom of speech and freedom of the press. Instead, the government of Azerbaijan is not democratic but authoritarian and will use any justification to maintain control and their way of thinking. Today it's criticism of the state religion, tomorrow it will be criticizing the government--and no totalitarian regime can have that.

Islam is much more than a religion it is a way of life to include not only your spirtual self but how you are to do business with others, to interact with others of differing faith's and also how to ultimately GOVERN... the very theocracy you spoke of in your post is exactly what Islam is about.

The Islamic countries are not run by the ellected officials they are run by the Ayetolahs (sp). The learned religious leaders of the Islamic faith are the ones that pull all the strings. All members of the Iranian government are members of the ruling religious sect.

By the way, Islam teaches peace untill the time that you have sufficient numbers to take over the country you are living in. They have done this throughout history. Islam has no hierarchy like other religions the iman and mullahs and other religious leaders are just individuals who have studied the Koran longer than others. They inturn give only thier Interpritation of the Koran. They also do not have to answer to any higher authority in the Islamic "church if you will" when they issue a fatwah or ruling/action as a member of your mosque you are responsible for caring out the fatwah without guestion since you are not as learned.

I've said it before and I will say it again Islam is a religion of peace untill it comes into power than it become a religion of oppression

[Nukeman]

You are confusing the issue of religion and government. The religion of Islam, like Christianity teaches peace, love, and tolerance. Both should be spiritual guides for enlightenment and how we treat our fellow human beings. Moderate as well as conservative Muslims do not condone violent jihad or violence. Although as we know, religion can be twisted by those who seek to use it for power and control. Both religions have for centuries been used to promote and even justify violence and aggression. I can give you dozens of examples if you want.

That being said, government is or should inherently be separate from religion. In certain countries around the world, religion has been intertwined with government to create what is know as theocracies. Theocracy, monarchy, autocracy, aristocracy, oligarchy etc. are all forms of government. The fact is, any county without democratic institutions , even a democracy can use religion to justify its means. Azerbaijan and most of the former Soviet republics are still very un-democratic yet because of massive foreign investment--are capitalist as well.

The point here is, although the authors are factually wrong about their arguments regarding Islam (I don't know what the entire article said), in a democratic society they should have freedom of speech and freedom of the press. Instead, the government of Azerbaijan is not democratic but authoritarian and will use any justification to maintain control and their way of thinking. Today it's criticism of the state religion, tomorrow it will be criticizing the government--and no totalitarian regime can have that.

I would like to point you to another chat board that is solely about Islam. This sight is not a bach Islam sight it is quite the opposite, it is frequented by both mainstream and hard line Muslims.

Shiachat.com

Take a look and learn something about how they are actually thinking...

[zefrendylia]

Islam is much more than a religion it is a way of life to include not only your spirtual self but how you are to do business with others, to interact with others of differing faith's and also how to ultimately GOVERN... the very theocracy you spoke of in your post is exactly what Islam is about...

I've said it before and I will say it again Islam is a religion of peace untill it comes into power than it become a religion of oppression

May I ask what education you have had on Islam? Are you a practicing Muslim? Are you a Muslim scholar or a world religion scholar?

I humbly disagree. Islam does not ultimately teach how to govern. In fact in the five tenets there is nothing about politics or governance:

The shahādatān, "I testify that there is none worthy of worship except God and I testify that Muhammad is the Messenger of God."
Salah, or ritual prayer, which must be performed five times a day at fixed times. Salah is intended to focus the mind on God; it is seen as a personal communication with God, expressing gratitude and worship. According to the Qur'an, the benefit of prayer "restrains [one] from shameful and evil deeds
Zakat, or alms-giving. This is the practice of charitable giving by Muslims based on accumulated wealth, and is obligatory for all who are able to do so.
Sawm, or fasting during the month of Ramadan. The fast is meant to allow Muslims to seek nearness to God, to express their gratitude to and dependence on him, to atone for their past sins, and to remind them of the needy.
The Hajj, which is the pilgrimage that occurs during the Islamic month of Dhu al-Hijjah in the city of Mecca. The pilgrim, or the hajji, is honored in his or her community, although Islamic teachers say that the Hajj should be an expression of devotion to God, not a means to gain social standing.

You are simply using the example of Iran to form a generalization of every country whose main religion is Islam. Present day Iran has come about through unique circumstances but I will come back to that later. For now, take into account the majority of major Islamic countries whose governments are in no way theocratic but in fact many are dictatorships or authoritarian regimes which was the original point I was trying to make. Totalitarian regimes can use but don't have to use religion, in this case Islam, to control the people. Countries like Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and most of Central Asia are decidedly Muslim but their governments are authoritarian. Saudi Arabia is the heart of Islam, yet it is ruled by a monarchy. Turkey is more democratic and very secular. Indonesia has the most Muslims in the world but is also democratic. In these cases, every government is very secular. In every case except Indonesia and Turkey, these countries lack fundamental democratic institutions. This means, a secular government even in a Muslim country can be oppressive. While a secular government in another Muslim country isn't. Religion has nothing to do with it. It is the type of government that determines denial of human rights and democratic freedoms.

That being said, thank you for bringing up the issue of Iran. What many Americans forget or do not simply know is that up until 1953, Iran was a liberal democracy with a parliamentary government. When PM Mohammed Mossadeq was voted into office in the 1950's he had a bold new idea: Iranians should get their fair share of the profits from their oil reserves that British Petroleum had exploited for years. He then nationalized the domestic oil industry. When BP got wind of this, they appealed to American oil companies to boycott Iranian oil exports much like they did earlier to Mexican oil. This tactic worked again, and Iran was on the verge of economic disaster. Mossadeq had no choice but to turn to the Soviet Union for loans. When the U.S. got wind of this, they sent in CIA operatives under Operation Ajax to stage a coup on Mossadeq and install the Shah as a puppet leader. It was a success and for a few decades the Shah ruled with an iron fist. His CIA-trained secret police kidnapped, tortured, and executed tens of thousands of any opposition. (do you see the oppressiveness without the theocracy?) The irony of this all is the U.S. took over all entire oil industry and didn't allow BP to get back in. Well, a funny thing happens when people are oppressed, they tend to fight back and revolt. So in the 1970's, the Islamic Revolution started, much of it by university students. The rest is what you probably know: oil spikes, hostage crisis, Jimmy Carter, etc. until we see what we have today.

Now of course, remember that what we read about Iran in the mainstream media is not the entire story. Those who support a bomb-bomb-bombardment of Iran always float back to Ahmadenijad's explosive statement that Jews should be wiped off the map. Yet, you yourself admit that the Ayatollahs have all the power. Iran isn't the only country with leaders making insensitive and belligerent public statements on foreign policy. Here is what the Ayatollah Khameini said in response to Ahmadinejad's statement: "the Islamic Republic has never threatened and will never threaten any country."

In fact before Ahmadinejad came into power in 2003 (any coincidence?), Iran had a fairly moderate President who encouraged freedoms, democratic institutions, peace and dialogue with the U.S. They even offered to help hunt down Al Qaeda which was also a threat in their country. Yet, the extremes of right-wing and left-wing ideology can swing in any country. But for the most part Ayatollah Khameini seems to be consistently progressive:

"Ali Khamenei has been supportive of science progress in Iran. He was among the first Islamic clerics to allow stem cell research and therapeutic cloning. In 2004, Ayatollah Khamenei said that the country's progress is dependent on investment in the field of science and technology. He also said that attaching a high status to scholars and scientists in society would help talents to flourish and science and technology to become domesticated, thus ensuring the country's progress and development.

In 2007, Khamenei requested that government officials speed up Iran's move towards economic privatization. Its last move towards such a goal was in 2004, when Article 44 of the constitution was overturned. Article 44 had decreed that Iran's core infrastructure should remain state-run. Khamenei also suggested that ownership rights should be protected in courts set up by the Justice Ministry; the hope was that this new protection would give a measure of security to and encourage private investment.

Additionally, Khamenei has stated that he believes in the importance of nuclear technology for civilian purposes because "oil and gas reserves cannot last forever."

After the September 11, 2001 attacks, he condemned the act and the attackers and called for a condemnation of terrorist activities all over the world, whether in the United States, Israel, the Balkans, or elsewhere. Candlelight vigils in Iran for the victims of the 9/11 attacks were commonplace during the next several nights."

[Samantha]

This is what happens when there is no seperation of church and state.

[Psychoblues]

Exactly!!!!

This is what happens when there is no seperation of church and state.

Why don't they get it? No question about it. Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, Budda, etc. would not be wearing the flag of any government as a shawl.

[glockmail]

May I ask what education you have had on Islam? Are you a practicing Muslim? Are you a Muslim scholar or a world religion scholar?......

what? If you're not a muzzy, you can't comment on Islam?

It's a bullshit religion, created by some jerk named Mohamed in his lust for power. It's spread by the sword. Not comparable at all to the true religions of Jews and Christians.

[theHawk]

I humbly disagree. Islam does not ultimately teach how to govern. In fact in the five tenets there is nothing about politics or governance:

The shahādatān, "I testify that there is none worthy of worship except God and I testify that Muhammad is the Messenger of God."
Salah, or ritual prayer, which must be performed five times a day at fixed times. Salah is intended to focus the mind on God; it is seen as a personal communication with God, expressing gratitude and worship. According to the Qur'an, the benefit of prayer "restrains [one] from shameful and evil deeds
Zakat, or alms-giving. This is the practice of charitable giving by Muslims based on accumulated wealth, and is obligatory for all who are able to do so.
Sawm, or fasting during the month of Ramadan. The fast is meant to allow Muslims to seek nearness to God, to express their gratitude to and dependence on him, to atone for their past sins, and to remind them of the needy.
The Hajj, which is the pilgrimage that occurs during the Islamic month of Dhu al-Hijjah in the city of Mecca. The pilgrim, or the hajji, is honored in his or her community, although Islamic teachers say that the Hajj should be an expression of devotion to God, not a means to gain social standing.

Islam is such as ass-backwards religion that none of its followers can ever admit to its infinite contradictions. First and foremost, all muslims deny the simple fact that the man, a so called "prophet of God", was a pedophile. And then of course they claim they regard Jesus Christ as another true prophet of God, yet claim his own chosen disciples ended up writing a bunch of "lies" when they wrote their Gospels. Its because of these very apparent contradictions in their religion that they can never mesh with freedom of speech, they wouldn't dare let their younger generation hear these simple facts that would inject a great deal of doubt into anyone who can think logically.

Is there a tenet for getting married to 6 year old girls to follow the example of the great 'prophet of God'?

[TheSage]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...9991C195DF.htm

Islamic courts that arrest and JAIL reporters for writing "unfavorable" stories about Islam and Mohammad

And we want to step backward into the 7th century ... because ... ?? ... anyone ... anyone ... ?? ...

Because the general knowledge level of people in the west is too high to keep them under the level of control the elites prefer. Olam Ha Ba, a new dark age of theocracy and suppression, is coming.

[Gaffer]

Looks like we picked up a muzzy. Gotta get my opinion in islam

[Kathianne]

Because the general knowledge level of people in the west is too high to keep them under the level of control the elites prefer. Olam Ha Ba, a new dark age of theocracy and suppression, is coming.

So the knowledge level is too high, but they are too stupid to see what's coming?

[avatar4321]

This is what happens when there is no seperation of church and state.

and yet you want to unite the Church of Al Gore with the state for some reason.

[Pale Rider]

The religion of Islam, like Christianity teaches peace, love, and tolerance.

Excuse me... ? It's teaches WHAT?!

UNHOLY QUOTES FROM THE KORAN
THAT PROMOTE TERRORISM
THE KINGDOM ALERT #130, P.1, WEEKLY UPDATE



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Warning: The following quotes are blasphemous. They are taken from the Koran (translated by N.J. Danwood). By reading these quotes you will have a basic understanding of the Muslim religion, the wars and tension in the Middle East, and the terrorism on September 11:

"...now that a Book confirming their own has come to them from God, they deny it...they reply: 'We believe in what was revealed to us.' But they deny what has since been revealed, although it is truth...Say: 'Whoever is an enemy of Gabriel' (who has by God's grace revealed to you [Muhammad] the Koran as a guide...confirming previous scriptures)..will surely find that God is the enemy of the unbelievers.'...And now that an apostle has come to them from God confirming their own Scriptures, some of those to whom the Scriptures were given cast off the Book of God behind their backs...The unbelievers among the People of the Book, and the pagans, resent that any blessings should have been sent down to you from your Lord. " (Surah 2:88-, 98-, 103-)

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"Men are tempted [in this life] by the lure of women...far better is the return of God. Say: 'Shall I tell you of better things than these, with which the righteous shall be rewarded by their Lord? Theirs shall be gardens watered by running streams, where they shall dwell for ever: wives of perfect chastity..." (Surah 3:14, 15)

"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." (Surah 3:19)

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

"To those that declare: 'God has commanded us to believe no apostle unless he brings down fire to consume an offering,' say: 'Other apostles before me [Muhammad] have come to you with veritable signs and worked the miracle you asked for...If they reject you [Muhammad], other apostles have been rejected before you..." (Surah 3:183-)

"If you wish to replace a wife with another, do not take from her the dowry you have given her..." (Surah 4:20)

"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)

"Believers, do not approach your prayers when you are drunk, but wait till you can grasp the meaning of your words..." (Surah 4:43)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"Try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives impartially." (Surah 4:126-)

"The Jews and Christians say: 'We are the children of God and His loved ones.' Say: 'Why then does He punish you for your sins?" (Surah 5:18)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"The God will say: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind 'Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?' 'Glory to You, 'he will answer, 'how could I ever say that to which I have no right?" (Surah 5:114-)

"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 8:51-)

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)

"It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosques of God..." (Surah 9:17)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

"Say: 'Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom..." (Surah 17:111)

"'How shall I bear a child,' she [Mary] answered, 'when I am a virgin...?' 'Such is the will of the Lord,' he replied. 'That is no difficult thing for Him...God forbid that He [God[ Himself should beget a son!...Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood..." (Surah 19:12-, 29-, 88)

"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah 22:78-)

"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)

"You shall not force your slave-girls into prostitution in order that you make money, if they wish to preserve their chastity." (Surah 24:33-)

"As for the faithful who do good works and believe what is revealed to Muhammad...He will forgive them their sins..." (Surah 47:1)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

"Shall the reward of goodness be anything but good?...Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents...They shall recline on green cushions and fine carpets...Blessed be the name of your Lord..." (Surah 55:52-66-)

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/koran.html

[Lightning Waltz]

You can find quotes like that in the Bible, as well...