Riots in Egypt

[Gaffer]

I bet iran's finger prints are all over this.

[Gaffer]

Just doesn't look like a few people having a demonstration to me.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110127...20110127181356

CAIRO (AFP) – Protests raged in Egypt for a third straight day Thursday as pro-democracy activists, galvanised by the return of dissident Mohamed ElBaradei, vowed to step up efforts to oust President Hosni Mubarak.

ElBaradei, a Nobel laureate and former chief of the UN nuclear watchdog, arrived from Vienna Thursday evening in Cairo, where according to his brother he will join mass protests planned after weekly Muslim prayers on Friday.

"It is a critical time in the life of Egypt. I have come to participate with the Egyptian people," said ElBaradei, a vocal critic of Mubarak, as he left Cairo airport.

Earlier in Vienna he told reporters he was ready to "lead the transition" in Egypt if asked.

"If people, in particularly young people, if they want me to lead the transition I will not let them down. My priority right now is to see a new Egypt and to see a new Egypt through peaceful transition," he said.

His arrival came on the third straight day of angry nationwide protests, which have built into the largest uprising in three decades, during which seven people have been killed -- five protesters and two policemen -- and more than 100 injured.

A security official told AFP that around 1,000 protesters had been arrested since the protests began.

While a heavy security clamp Thursday prevented protesters from massing in the centre of Cairo as they did Tuesday and Wednesday, violent clashes erupted in the cities of Suez and Ismailiya, and in a Sinai town where a protester was shot dead by police, according to witnesses.

[NightTrain]

I strongly disagree. As discussed earlier, the mass of people are uneducated and susceptible to both individuals and ideologies harmful to their neighbors, including Israel. Iran would move in a heartbeat.

Well, of course Egypt would have to be protected from any country attempting to strike while they're most vulnerable as they sort things out.

Iran wouldn't mobilize if they're told bluntly they'll get their asses annihilated long before reaching Egyptian borders - they know we have the capability of doing so easily.

Besides, Israel would not stand by idly with a mass Iranian expeditionary force on the move. They'll strike at the first Iranian move outside of their borders.

Now, internal meddling such as the kind they've been doing with Iraq is definitely something they'd be doing and probably are doing right now... and that's difficult, if not impossible to try and stop.

[abso]

Ok, why can you post smilies, but not answer Gaffer? You also totally ignore any points he or I brought up. So, your family are from the lower 73% of the population?

this is not an argument, so don't get angry...

i could post smiles but not answers because i had only 10 minutes until we go out, so it wasnt enough time to post answers.

no, my family aren't from the lower 73% of the population, but my family class or income doesn't concern anyone here, does it ?

[Kathianne]

this is not an argument, so don't get angry...

i could post smiles but not answers because i had only 10 minutes until we go out, so it wasnt enough time to post answers.

no, my family aren't from the lower 73% of the population, but my family class or income doesn't concern anyone here, does it ?

Not here, but probably there. You just seem miffed that we pegged you were of the privileged class. That's not a slam at you, many of us grew up with more than average. However, it does seem to indicate you may not be as 'in touch' with the heartbeat of Egypt as you think.

Of all the posts since I wrote that one, it's the only topic you keep returning to. Why? Can't respond to one of the one's about your country that seem to be a tad different than a few angry youths? This was no facebook flame.

[Gaffer]

this is not an argument, so don't get angry...

i could post smiles but not answers because i had only 10 minutes until we go out, so it wasnt enough time to post answers.

no, my family aren't from the lower 73% of the population, but my family class or income doesn't concern anyone here, does it ?

No ones arguing or angry. I'm asking questions. You have stated in many posts that we know nothing about your country and that you live there and know what's really happening. So I have been asking you. I'm getting a Baghdad Bob response so far. It's just a few people responding to a facebook call to protest. This is major and involves many countries. And Egypt is a key member of the arab states in the region so what happens there is important.

If the current regime falls are you in danger? Are you following the events there?

[Gaffer]

FOX news just announced that all internet service in Egypt has been shut down. So abso will be offline for a while.

[Kathianne]

FOX news just announced that all internet service in Egypt has been shut down. So abso will be offline for a while.

And he claims that 'we' don't get the truth. When was the last time our internet was turned off? We complain about the media, vehemently, yet compared to most of the world, what we need to know is out there, sometimes from Europe first, but followed in shame by our own. Same with Europe, in reverse.

[Gaffer]

And he claims that 'we' don't get the truth. When was the last time our internet was turned off? We complain about the media, vehemently, yet compared to most of the world, what we need to know is out there, sometimes from Europe first, but followed in shame by our own. Same with Europe, in reverse.

Baghdad Bob is silenced again. I was hoping he would give us regular reports on the goings on there and maybe some info that wasn't making the news. He seems to have bought into the government propaganda instead.

Maybe now he'll believe us when we say it's serious business there.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he may not be able to express himself freely.

[Kathianne]

Baghdad Bob is silenced again. I was hoping he would give us regular reports on the goings on there and maybe some info that wasn't making the news. He seems to have bought into the government propaganda instead.

Maybe now he'll believe us when we say it's serious business there.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he may not be able to express himself freely.

True, but I don't think that's it. The privileged classes in less than free countries need to believe that the government is good and the media fair. Like I said, I think Abso believes and was raised and educated to believe that the country is good, just, etc.

The people he knows are probably much like him, he's not exposed to those others anymore than I am those living in squalor in Chicago.

[Gaffer]

True, but I don't think that's it. The privileged classes in less than free countries need to believe that the government is good and the media fair. Like I said, I think Abso believes and was raised and educated to believe that the country is good, just, etc.

The people he knows are probably much like him, he's not exposed to those others anymore than I am those living in squalor in Chicago.

True, that's why I said I think he lives in a bubble.

[revelarts]

Abso position's kind of reminds me of the the young South Africans of a few years back. probably not quite as dramatic but similar.


Switching gears

The fact that the internet and cell have been cut off in Egypt is clear and pointed example of a reason why we DO NOT need to consolidate gov't's. Ie European Union, North American Union, World gov't..

Keeping states smaller gives the people more access to the "ruling" parties and access to people outside of the "rulers" authority to contact for support of various kinds.

[Kathianne]

I've been pretty busy today and have been reading about the cut off and analysis of whether or not Mubarak can survive this. One good interpretation was that, 'Yes, as long as the government could control and not be overwhelmed by protestors, however if they needed to call the army out, all bets off. Armies tend to not want to shoot on their own people to keep government in power.'

Just saw on Yahoo:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_egypt_protest

Egyptian military deploys in Cairo under curfew
By MAGGIE MICHAEL and HADEEL AL-SHALCHI, Associated Press Maggie Michael And Hadeel Al-shalchi, Associated Press 1 hr 16 mins ago

CAIRO – Egypt's military deployed on the streets of Cairo to enforce a nighttime curfew as the sun set Friday on a day of rioting and violent chaos that was a major escalation in the challenge to authoritarian President Hosni Mubarak's 30-year rule.

Still thousands in the capital Cairo defied a nationwide night curfew and were trying to storm two major government buildings — the state TV and the Foreign Ministry. Others were praying on the streets after nightfall.

Flames rose up across a number of cities from burning tires and police cars. Even the ruling party headquarters in Cairo was ablaze in the outpouring of rage, bitterness and utter frustration with a regime seen as corrupt, heavy-handed and neglectful of grinding poverty that afflicts nearly half of the 80 million Egyptians. Hundreds were looting television sets and electric fans from the burning complex of buildings used by the ruling party.

One protester was killed in demonstrations that stretched across nearly half the provinces in Egypt, bringing the death toll for four days of protests to eight.

"I can't believe our own police, our own government would keep beating up on us like this," said Cairo protester Ahmad Salah, 26. "I've been here for hours and gassed and keep going forward, and they keep gassing us, and I will keep going forward. This is a cowardly government and it has to fall. We're going to make sure of it."

Internet and cell phone services, at least in Cairo, appeared to be largely cut off since overnight in the most extreme measure so far to try to hamper protesters form organizing. However, that did not prevent tens of thousands from flooding the streets, emboldened by the recent uprising in Tunisia — another North African Arab nation.

Even Nobel Peace laureate Mohamed ElBaradei, one of the country's leading pro-democracy advocates, was under house arrest after joining the protests....

non-embed video gives an idea of size today:

http://blogs.knoxnews.com/silence/ar...tiananme.shtml

[Gaffer]

He's called out the army so he's going down. There will be no compromise now. It's really a matter of who's going to take power when the smoke clears.

Me thinks abso's bubble has burst. If his family is tied to the regime he's in deep dodo.

[Kathianne]

I bet iran's finger prints are all over this.

I think it's a combination of real corrupt government, Islamic extreme interference, now the Muslim Brotherhood's on the bandwagon, the two are connectible. It's the connection with Muslim Brotherhood that cements the Iranian component:

http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/...m-brotherhood/

ElBaradei: friend of the Muslim Brotherhood

If the Egyptian unrest was happening in a number of other Middle Eastern states, particularly Syria and Iran, a resulting revolution would likely lead to a better government than the one that had fallen. But that’s not so much the case in Egypt. There are pro-democracy forces there, but there are also very strong Islamist forces there, and while the latter don’t have the numbers of the former, they probably do have one quality that will enable them in the midst of the chaos: Ruthlessness.

That in mind, it’s very much worth keeping an eye on Mohamed ElBaradei. The former UN nuclear weapons cop is in Egypt, under house arrest, and setting himself up as the democratic opposition leader to counter Mubarak. But in an article attempting to make ElBaradei seem like a decent alternative to the current Egyptian ruler, Bruce Reidel discloses the following:

Egypt’s new opposition leader, former International Atomic Energy Agency head Mohamed ElBaradei, has formed a loose alliance with the Brotherhood because he knows it is the only opposition group that can mobilize masses of Egyptians, especially the poor. He says he can work with it to change Egypt. Many scholars of political Islam also judge the Brotherhood is the most reasonable face of Islamic politics in the Arab world today. Skeptics fear ElBaradei will be swept along by more radical forces.

ElBaradei is a radical himself to some extent. During his time with the International Atomic Energy Agency, he oftentimes served as an apologist for Iran’s nuclear program. He hasn’t shown himself to be a friend of the United States. The “loose alliance” he has established with the Muslim Brotherhood, the ideological grandfather to al Qaeda, is a mile-wide red flag that if he succeeds Mubarak, Egypt will probably fall out of alliance with the US and Israel and will likely fall into Iran’s orbit.

For their part, the mullahs are greeting the Egpytian unrest with open arms.

Update: Robert Gibbs, outgoing WH spokesman, is talking up ElBaradei in the press briefing, but stopped short of endorsing him as an alternative to Mubarak. This White House must tread very very carefully here. ElBaradei may be a “Nobel laureate” as Gibbs said, but that award was, like the Nobel given to Jimmy Carter three years earlier, largely a political award given to express disdain for George W. Bush and his wartime policies. The notion that ElBaradei did anything to make the world more peaceful is ludicrous.