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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    True as we've talked about this before.



    Thanks but I'm no fan of the IMF.
    FJ,
    So we agree on the IMF somewhat. cool.

    But Maybe you can tell me why you think the AIG Goldman story is the fault of the regulators. When many of the regulators were former Goldman employees. ANd EVEN IF none were Goldman employees. Why is it ONLY the Gov'ts fault if it's so stupid that it allows itself to be robbed but the robbers are not at fault at all? I just don't get that.
    I don't understand the line of reasoning that exonerates the con-man/thief and blames the idiot victim.
    Last edited by revelarts; 02-28-2011 at 09:13 AM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    But Maybe you can tell me why you think the AIG Goldman story is the fault of the regulators. When many of the regulators were former Goldman employees. ANd EVEN IF none were Goldman employees. Why is it ONLY the Gov'ts fault if it's so stupid that it allows itself to be robbed but the robbers are not at fault at all? I just don't get that.
    I don't understand the line of reasoning that exonerates the con-man/thief and blames the idiot victim.
    It's a poorly thought out regulatory system that allows this sort of thing. I don't exonerate Goldman but let the regulators go in and get the money back if they did something wrong. You don't think that unwinding AIG and paying back the other investors at par was the fault of the regulators?

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    It's a poorly thought out regulatory system that allows this sort of thing.
    O r well thought out depending on what you want to do?
    But If your trying to really regulate, your right it's swiss cheese.

    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    I don't exonerate Goldman but let the regulators go in and get the money back if they did something wrong.
    That would be great but I'm not holding my breath for that to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    You don't think that unwinding AIG and paying back the other investors at par was the fault of the regulators?
    No, I agree, that was the regulators fault and pretty stupid.
    Or planned to give Financial institutions on the other end of AIG some real money at the expense of the tax payers. I don't know which. Maybe both.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    O r well thought out depending on what you want to do?
    But If your trying to really regulate, your right it's swiss cheese.
    A cynic's view I suppose, I think it's generally busy body politicians who keep trying to make it better but can't help but get out of their own way. One side wanting to regulate more and the other side wanting to do less with compromise leading to ill thought out methods.

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    That would be great but I'm not holding my breath for that to happen.
    And that's the fault of the police/regulators for not doing their job.

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    No, I agree, that was the regulators fault and pretty stupid.
    Or planned to give Financial institutions on the other end of AIG some real money at the expense of the tax payers. I don't know which. Maybe both.
    I'm guessing they just didn't realize the extent of what was coming down the pipe. AIG was the first big bailout iirc and they probably thought stopping the problem there would keep the rest of the industry stable.

  5. #20
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    Goes to your point about regulation, and oversight...
    or the lack thereof.

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    Last edited by revelarts; 02-28-2011 at 02:26 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  6. #21
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    Source - Huff Post

    "By Shahien Nasiripour

    Goldman Got Billions From AIG For It's Own Account

    Goldman Sachs collected $2.9 billion from the American International Group as payout on a speculative trade it placed for the benefit of its own account, receiving the bulk of those funds after AIG received an enormous taxpayer rescue, according to the final report of an investigative panel appointed by Congress.

    The fact that a significant slice of the proceeds secured by Goldman through the AIG bailout landed in its own account--as opposed to those of its clients or business partners-- has not been previously disclosed. These details about the workings of the controversial AIG bailout, which eventually swelled to $182 billion, are among the more eye-catching revelations in the report to be released Thursday by the bipartisan Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission.

    The details underscore the degree to which Goldman--the most profitable securities firm in Wall Street history--benefited directly from the massive emergency bailout of the nation's financial system, a deal crafted on the watch of then-Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, who had previously headed the bank.

    * "If these allegations are correct, it appears to have been a direct transfer of wealth from the Treasury to Goldman's shareholders," said Joshua Rosner, a bond analyst and managing director at independent research consultancy Graham Fisher & Co., after he was read the relevant section of the report. "The AIG counterparty bailout, which was spun as necessary to protect the public, seems to have protected the institution at the expense of the public."

    When news first broke in 2009 that Goldman had been an indirect beneficiary of the AIG bailout, collecting the full value of some $14 billion in outstanding insurance polices it held with the firm, the officials who brokered the deal justified these terms as a necessary stabilizer for the broader financial system. As the world's largest insurance company, AIG's inability to cover its outstanding obligations could have threatened the solvency of the institutions holding its policies, asserted the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, which oversaw the deal.

    * Goldman fended off claims that the arrangement amounted to a backdoor bailout by asserting that none of the money from the AIG rescue landed in its own coffers. Rather, those funds went to compensate clients or institutions on the other side of its trades, Goldman said.

    But the report from the financial crisis commission, obtained by The Huffington Post in advance of its release, appears to challenge that assertion: The report reveals another pot of money conveyed to Goldman--the $2.9 billion to cover trades the Wall Street investment house made for itself. That money went straight to the bank's bottom line, according to the report.

    Over the last two years, Goldman has reported nearly $22 billion in profits, according to its official earnings statements. During those years, it has paid out $31.6 billion in compensation to its employees.

    * According to the report, the financial crisis commission first learned that the $2.9 billion in AIG funds landed in Goldman's account through an e-mail the bank sent to the panel on July 15, 2010 in response to questions.

    Previously, Goldman executives had testified that the AIG bailout funds the bank collected went to compensate its clients and institutions that held the other side of its trades.

    * At a hearing on July 1, 2010--two weeks before Goldman sent the e-mail acknowledging how $2.9 billion in AIG funds wound up in its own account--the crisis panel questioned Goldman's chief financial officer, David A. Viniar and managing director David Lehman. Both said they knew nothing about AIG funds landing in the bank's private coffers, according to a transcript of the hearing.

    The report concludes that Goldman collected the $2.9 billion as payment for so-called proprietary trades made for its own account--essentially successful bets on large pools of financial instruments.

    * "The total was for proprietary trades," the report asserts. "Unlike the $14 billion received from AIG on trades in which Goldman owed the money to its own counterparties, this $2.9 billion was retained by Goldman."

    "At the time, the idea was the sucker could go down because there wasn't enough liquidity in the system, money wasn't moving, and you could see a domino effect," said Ann Rutledge, a principal at R&R Consulting in New York, which specializes in structured finance.

    * In reality, she contends, those fears were overblown: There was ample money in the financial system. Rather, individual institutions did not have enough cash on hand to survive their losses, she asserts. But the fear of a broader liquidity crisis was used as justification for what now appears to have been a backdoor means of bailing out Goldman, said Rutledge.

    The details in the commission's report leave Goldman "naked," she added. "It doesn't have the fig leaf of a systemic risk argument. Normally what happens when you have a sophisticated institution that's doing stupid credit stuff is you let them eat it, but that didn't happen in the bailout."....

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_814589.html


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    Last edited by revelarts; 02-28-2011 at 02:42 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Goes to your point about regulation, and oversight...
    or the lack thereof.
    You got that right, lack thereof. Grayson is an idiot and Stearns doesn't seem much smarter re: Fed actions.

  8. #23
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    <div style="background-color:#000000;width:520px;"><div style="padding:4px;"><embed src="http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:comedycentral.com:365829" width="512" height="288" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" base="." flashVars=""></embed><p style="text-align:left;background-color:#FFFFFF;padding:4px;margin-top:4px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><b><a href="http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-november-16-2010/exclusive---bethany-mclean---joe-nocera-extended-interview">The Daily Show</a></b><br/>Tags: <a href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/'>Daily Show Full Episodes</a>,<a href='http://www.indecisionforever.com/'>Political Humor & Satire Blog</a>,<a href='http://www.facebook.com/thedailyshow'>The Daily Show on Facebook</a></p></div></div>
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    Clearly the time away that you and Psycho had has added nothing to either of your abilities to exhibit thought and make rationale connections.

    The opposite of government is not corporate, it's people, individuals; I wouldn't expect either of you to recognize that.
    I wasn't asking you to play opposites, kid. This post alone proves you have no ideology to stand on, except "I'm smarter than everyone else in the room."

    Which, of course, you're not.
    All conservatives are such from personal defects. They have been effeminated by position or nature, born halt and blind, through luxury of their parents, and can only, like invalids, act on the defensive.
    -Ralph Waldo Emerson

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palin Rider View Post
    I wasn't asking you to play opposites, kid. This post alone proves you have no ideology to stand on, except "I'm smarter than everyone else in the room."

    Which, of course, you're not.
    That's just the only tactic the poor thing can do, PR. I don't know why but I haven't seen that post until you quoted it here?!?!?!?!??!?!

    Thanks!!!!!!!

    Psychoblues

  11. #26
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    If I can find the Overstock CEO's interviews, I'll post those they are ear benders on all of this.
    here's

    more Info on Paulson and Goldman
    http://www.deepcapture.com/goldman-s...d-our-economy/

    Goldman Sachs, John Paulson, and the Hedge Funds that Pumped and Dumped Our Economy
    It is perhaps beyond the ability of an innocent public to believe this, but there is a growing body of evidence that a few mad scientists might have engineered the near-destruction of the American financial system. Except they weren’t scientists, per se – they were unscrupulous, market manipulating hedge fund managers, and we can almost hear them cackling with glee as they haul their ill-gotten billions to the bank.

    In a civil suit filed Friday, the Securities and Exchange Commission charged Goldman Sachs with fraud for helping hedge fund manager John Paulson create collateralized debt obligations that he had secretly designed to self destruct. That is, Goldman Sachs, at the direction of Paulson, hand-picked mortgages that were certain to go bad, and stuffed the mortgages (or rather, “synthetic” derivatives of the mortgages) into collateralized debt obligations that temporarily masked the true value of the loans.

    Goldman did this for only one reason: to create instruments against which Paulson and other hedge fund clients could bet with virtually no risk. Meanwhile, Goldman cheerfully sold the CDOs to unwitting customers, knowing full well that those customers would be wiped out when the reference loans inevitably defaulted.
    Goldman and its hedge fund clients also surely knew that the losses on these synthetic CDOs would crash the overall market for CDOs, hobble competing investment banks that had CDOs on their books, and do serious damage to the financial system.

    Goldman isn’t the only bank that created these CDOs. Deutsche Bank, UBS, and smaller outfits, such as Tricadia Inc., perpetrated similar scams. All told, well over $250 billion worth of these “synthetic” CDOs were sold into the market in the two years leading up to the financial crisis of 2008. Indeed, there is a distinct possibility that a majority of all the CDOs sold during those two years were deliberately designed to implode by hedge fund managers who were betting against both the CDOs and the financial system as a whole.

    For more than three years, the media has swallowed the hedge fund party line that our economic troubles were solely caused by mortgage companies lending too much money to undeserving home buyers. No doubt, there was over exuberance and fraud in the world of subprime lending, but that is not the full story. It is now clear that the so-called “real estate bubble” was fueled by an expanding market for CDOs. And the market for CDOs was driven, in turn, by fraudulent deals similar to the ones that Goldman did for Paulson. In short, we witnessed a classic pump-and-dump scheme, only this time it was writ large, on the scale of the U.S. financial system.

    I predict that as the details of this doomsday machine come to light, we will see that the hedge funds that profited from it all know each other well. I predict further that it will become apparent that what ties these hedge funds to each other is a common acquaintance with associates of Michael Milken, the famous financial criminal who pioneered the market for CDOs, and whose criminal debt machine nearly brought the economy to ruins in the 1980s.

    John Paulson, who launched his career with the assistance of a host of Milken cronies, including Jerome Kohlberg and Leon Levy, is one of the hedge fund managers in this network. He has been described as a genius by the media, and perhaps that is what he is, but we now know that he abides by the Milken code, which has it that there is virtue in a clever con well-orchestrated. And never in history has there been a more profitable con than Paulson’s. His bets against the CDO market – the market that he helped set up to collapse — earned him more than $3 billion over the course of just a few months in 2007....
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palin Rider View Post
    I wasn't asking you to play opposites, kid. This post alone proves you have no ideology to stand on, except "I'm smarter than everyone else in the room."

    Which, of course, you're not.
    Talk is cheap PR, especially your sad little one liners.

  13. #28
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    <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/xT-I-6OfDao" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


    <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/8lHvTKzfu8Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


    <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/FwXpG6fjUdU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    Talk is cheap PR, especially your sad little one liners.
    Coming from you of all people, that's "flippin' funny!"
    All conservatives are such from personal defects. They have been effeminated by position or nature, born halt and blind, through luxury of their parents, and can only, like invalids, act on the defensive.
    -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palin Rider View Post
    Coming from you of all people, that's "flippin' funny!"
    Still upset I was slowly dismantling your Psychology of money and taxation thread eh?

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