"Domestic Terrorist" Jailed for Making silver Coins

[revelarts]

Man who made his own coins out of pure silver convicted of "conspiracy against the United States" - FBI

The leader of a group that marketed a fake currency called Liberty Dollars in the Asheville area and elsewhere has been found guilty by a federal jury of conspiracy against the government in a case of “domestic terrorism.”

Bernard von NotHaus was convicted Friday at the conclusion of an eight-day trial in U.S. District Court in Statesville. The jury deliberated less than two hours, according to the Department of Justice.

Charges remain pending against William Kevin Innes, an Asheville man who authorities said recruited merchants in Western North Carolina willing to accept the “barter” currency, according to court records. Innes was indicted along with von NotHaus in 2009.

“Attempts to undermine the legitimate currency of this country are simply a unique form of domestic terrorism,” U.S. Attorney Anne Tompkins said. “While these forms of anti-government activities do not involve violence, they are every bit as insidious and represent a clear and present danger to the economic stability of this country.”

The case was investigated by the FBI, Buncombe County Sheriff’s Office and U.S. Secret Service with help from the U.S. Mint.

“We are determined to meet these threats through infiltration, disruption and dismantling of organizations which seek to challenge the legitimacy of our democratic form of government,” Tompkins said.

Von NotHaus, 67, faces up to 25 years in prison during sentencing, which hasn’t been scheduled. The government also is seeking the forfeiture of about 16,000 pounds of Liberty Dollar coins and precious metals valued at nearly $7 million....

http://www.citizen-times.com/article...yssey=nav|head

http://charlotte.fbi.gov/dojpressrel...1/ce031811.htm

i don't know what to say here.

[fj1200]

i don't know what to say here.

Don't F' with the government's coinage monopoly.

[revelarts]

Don't F' with the government's coinage monopoly.

"Don't F' with the government."

Is About all you need there.

[Thunderknuckles]

There's gotta be more behind the story on the Liberty Dollar group. If memory serves correct, creating local currencies in the US is not illegal as long as the local currency is not exchanged for US currency. There's the rub. Did this group try to exchange Liberty Dollars for US dollars. If not, what did they do that was illegal and considered terrorism?

[Thunderknuckles]

Hmmm, I wonder if this has anything do with the fact they used Silver as the currency medium which has it's own value in US dollars.

[revelarts]

There's gotta be more behind the story on the Liberty Dollar group. If memory serves correct, creating local currencies in the US is not illegal as long as the local currency is not exchanged for US currency. There's the rub. Did this group try to exchange Liberty Dollars for US dollars. If not, what did they do that was illegal and considered terrorism?

Thunder I remember when this 1st came up, when the guy was raided. I don't think there where any issues like that going on with the guy. what i rememer getting from what i read at the time was that the Feds were making an example of this guy.
I'll have to look at it more. but that's the immpression I came away with at the time. Nothing in the articles I've read so far change that opinion

[DragonStryk72]

The charges seem pretty trumped up. I think it's possible the government reacted in a pretty overzealous manner.

[Little-Acorn]

The leader of a group that marketed a fake currency called Liberty Dollars in the Asheville area and elsewhere has been found guilty by a federal jury of conspiracy against the government in a case of “domestic terrorism.”

Bernard von NotHaus was convicted Friday at the conclusion of an eight-day trial in U.S. District Court in Statesville. The jury deliberated less than two hours, according to the Department of Justice.

Charges remain pending against William Kevin Innes, an Asheville man who authorities said recruited merchants in Western North Carolina willing to accept the “barter” currency, according to court records. Innes was indicted along with von NotHaus in 2009.

“Attempts to undermine the legitimate currency of this country are simply a unique form of domestic terrorism,” U.S. Attorney Anne Tompkins said. “While these forms of anti-government activities do not involve violence, they are every bit as insidious and represent a clear and present danger to the economic stability of this country.”

That's weird.

Terrorism means attacking people, wounding and killing people, or at least planning to do so, usually for political purposes. Domestic terrorism usually means a U.S. resident doing it inside the U.S.

This guy didn't do any of that. When the govt calls him a "domestic terrorist", I get a disconnect. I wonder if I've somehow jumped into a different story about something else.

If I install a toilet in my house that uses 3 gallons of water per flush, am I a "domestic terrorist" too?

The Constitution says Congress shall have to power to coin money and regulate the value of it. Does that mean nobody else is allowed to do it in the U.S.? Could be. At any rate, the Fed govt has made laws saying that private mints are illegal, and this guy broke those laws. The laws are clearly constitutional.

But a "domestic terrorist"?

[Thunderknuckles]

The Constitution says Congress shall have to power to coin money and regulate the value of it. Does that mean nobody else is allowed to do it in the U.S.? Could be. At any rate, the Fed govt has made laws saying that private mints are illegal, and this guy broke those laws. The laws are clearly constitutional.

But a "domestic terrorist"?

As I said before, creating local barter currencies is not illegal and enjoys wide spread use across the country in various communities. I wonder if the technicality they got him for was using a private minting press to create the currency?

But yeah, labeling him a "domestic terrorist" is pretty damn scary.

(Of course, I'm assuming this guy is not a real dirt bag that is in need of a good prison sentence)

[logroller]

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

COTUS

This specifies no state, not a person or group of people, shall coin money or make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts. If you owe me 20bucks and I say you can give me that funny t-shirt of yours I like so much, have we too broken the law? My understanding of US legal tender is it MUST be accepted for repayment of a debt, not that its solely acceptable (plus gold&silver).

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

-COTUS Art1 Sect7

If the coinage wasn't a counterfeit of a US coin or security, how is that a punishable violation?

{sarcasm ON} Oh ho ho, we can't have any terrorists running around coining money, undermining our well oiled financial machine, better nip this in the bud.

Trial begins: He's a criminal, How do you know? He made a coin for trade that wasn't backed by the US govt. Did he force anyone to use it? Well no, but he's terrorist (Depending on time in history, could be subsituted with commie or witch). Well why didn't you say so in the beginning-- Guilty. Case closed.{sarcasm OFF}

edit: ah hah, this is the rub

Von NotHaus designed the Liberty Dollar currency in 1998 and the Liberty coins were marked with the dollar sign ($); the words dollar, USA, Liberty, Trust in God (instead of In God We Trust); and other features associated with legitimate U.S. coinage. Since 1998, NORFED has been issuing, disseminating, and placing into circulation the Liberty Dollar in all its forms throughout the United States and Puerto Rico. NORFED’s purpose was to mix Liberty Dollars into the current money of the United States. NORFED intended for the Liberty Dollar to be used as current money in order to limit reliance on, and to compete with, United States currency.

-excerpt from revs fbi link above

[logroller]

Article I, section 8, clause 5 of the United States Constitution delegates to Congress the power to coin money and to regulate the value thereof. This power was delegated to Congress in order to establish and preserve a uniform standard of value and to insure a singular monetary system for all purchases and debts in the United States, public and private. Along with the power to coin money, Congress has the concurrent power to restrain the circulation of money which is not issued under its own authority in order to protect and preserve the constitutional currency for the benefit of all citizens of the nation. It is a violation of federal law for individuals, such as von NotHaus, or organizations, such as NORFED, to create private coin or currency systems to compete with the official coinage and currency of the United States.

revs fbi link

31 USC subsection 5103,

United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts.

Legal monopoly indeed.

So I could use US gold coins for exchange, what's the face value of a troy ounce US gold coin -- $50. OK, sounds great; instead of direct deposit, I'd like my tax refund in US gold coins, of course using the uniform standard of US currency, ie face value.

[fj1200]

COTUS

This specifies no state, not a person or group of people, shall coin money or make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts. If you owe me 20bucks and I say you can give me that funny t-shirt of yours I like so much, have we too broken the law? My understanding of US legal tender is it MUST be accepted for repayment of a debt, not that its solely acceptable (plus gold&silver).

-COTUS Art1 Sect7

Gold used to be the standard that debts were payable in, until about the 1930s IIRC, about when we got rid of that pesky gold standard.

edit: ah hah, this is the rub

-excerpt from revs fbi link above

Good catch.

[revelarts]

the thing about the Looks like Us Money doesn't Fly,
He wasn't trying to pass it off as anything but what it was.

Not dropping silver coins into the coke machine.

He was completely above board.
So completely legal as pointed out earlier seems to me.


But the the More Serious issue that Acorn mentioned is the FBI's classification of the activity as "Domestic terror"

And if terror then all the extreme measures and extra legal rules and punishments apply. the guy is a war criminal at this point. Since we have a war on terror. An undeclared enemy combatant since he's never wore a uniform, unless he was in the u.s. service. A war criminal, they didn't have to give him a trial he could just be detained indefinitely.

What else is classified as domestic terror?
It's been my contention that terror against the gov't is what ever the gov't says it is.
this is a case in point.

[Thunderknuckles]

It's been my contention that terror against the gov't is what ever the gov't says it is.

I can see that quote showing up in a history book somewhere down the line

[logroller]

the thing about the Looks like Us Money doesn't Fly,He wasn't trying to pass it off as anything but what it was.

How so? it's codified in the Constitution, Article 1. We're not talking about some perverse legislation introduced later. I don't thinkit takes a great lawyer to convince a jury that using the "$" symbol and the word "dollar" on a coin and using it as currency is considered counterfeiting. If I gave you a something the same shape as an apple, all red and shiny; only its no apple, but i tell you it isn't-- no prob, yet. What happens when it ends up in a barrel full of real apples, now we have a problem. You see, that's how currency works, it changes hands and we accept it as a uniform standard. If somebody introduces a fake, regardless of their intention, they have caused a problem down the line. Now the Terrorist thing... the intent to disrupt the lawful regulation of currency bears witness and intent is difficult to prove; but even thenit would seem to me as a conspiracy, extending that to be terrorism???? must of been like ten times better than any lawyer I've seen.