Beware of the Huckabee/Herman Cain “fairtax“!

[DragonStryk72]

What I post are documented facts which seem to annoy you and thus, your obfuscations and deflections.


And you are correct, I “won’t move, inch or budge at all” when facts are involved. I do not attempt to change the truth to what it is not. But you are free to continue in your deflection away from the topic since that approach best serves you ultimate interests.


JWK




If we can make the majority of America’s families dependent upon a federal government check, [the alleged fair tax’s family consumption entitlement] we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ___Our Washington Establishment’s Marxist game plan, a plan to establish a federal plantation and redistribute the bread which America’s labor and business has produced.

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You're just not worth my time and energy. Guys, don't feed the troll. if we just let this go, it won't hurt anything.

[fj1200]

No. I use the word "property" because it is correct. Mary and Joe are selling the property they have in their labor and the S.C. agrees with me:

I didn't say it was incorrect, I joked that you couldn't rebut without using the phrase; You didn't get it. Whether they are selling that "property" is moot, the consumer is paying the tax not the Sixpack's.

You simply do not agree with the fact that when Mary and Joe Sixpack, as I have previously described them, are selling the property they have in their labor, and, the federal government under the alleged fair tax wants a 23 percent cut of the selling price of their labor.

Doesn't matter, goods and services are subject. Why should goods be subject but not services? There is labor included in the property of newly manufactured goods as well. You want to have it both ways in your argument and once you lose that false premise you lose the argument.

But regardless of your interpretations and obfuscations, the fact remains the 23 percent tax calculated from the sale of Mary and Joe’s labor is an entirely different tax from that which is laid upon the sale of newly manufactured property.

Not really. I'm still not sure of the love you have for the current code over the FairTax.

And regardless of your assertion about the tax involved with Mary and Joe and who pays it, the other fact remains that Mary and Joe will have to file fairtax returns 12 times a year under the penalty of perjury and send the tax to the federal government.

They already have to file quarterlies now and they might have to make more frequent payments based on the size of their firm but I don't know all the rules, nevertheless you conveniently ignore the massive streamlining of the tax code on the other side and get wrapped up in your single-minded viewpoint.

So either way you are very much misguided when it comes to the Huckabee/Cain fairtax trap.

Seems like I have it pretty much down pat, you on the other hand...

BTW, why didn't you answer my question?

[fj1200]

Guys, don't feed the troll. if we just let this go, it won't hurt anything.

But I have a pool going on how many times he'll say "property" and "labor" in the same sentence. Did I not send you the PM?

[DragonStryk72]

But I have a pool going on how many times he'll say "property" and "labor" in the same sentence. Did I not send you the PM?

Damn it, you guys are supposed to keep me apprised of this stuff! How the hell am I supposed to bet the pool if I don't know it's happening in the first place?

[logroller]

I really want to hear about this labor on property. Did they grow the trees, mill the lumber, develop a foundry for the nails? How much of this toiling was actually theirs? I mean I hate (J/K it's fun) to point out the strawman in the field, but it would seem idealism has run its course. Quite frankly if someone was to labor away constructing this home as premised I highly doubt it was to place it "for sale by owner-builder". I've met exactly one person in 5years in the construction business who actually labored on his property. I hope you don't consider painting and changing out some fixtures as "labor" on property-- I've done that (and more) in every home I ever lived in-- its called pride in ownership.

[fj1200]

Damn it, you guys are supposed to keep me apprised of this stuff! How the hell am I supposed to bet the pool if I don't know it's happening in the first place?

Completely my fault. Have a Coke on me, I'll get you back later with my cut of the pool.

[johnwk]

BTW, here is a list of Senators who are promoting the Fair Tax Act of 2011-2012, more appropriately called the Fair Tax Trap of 2012:


Sen Chambliss, Saxby [GA] who introduced the legislation and its five co-sponsors

Sen Burr, Richard [NC] - 1/25/2011
Sen Coburn, Tom [OK] - 1/25/2011
Sen DeMint, Jim [SC] - 1/25/2011
Sen Isakson, Johnny [GA] - 1/25/2011
Sen Moran, Jerry [KS] - 1/25/2011


And here is a list of House members supporting the fairtax trap


Rep Adams, Sandy [FL-24] - 1/5/2011
Rep Akin, W. Todd [MO-2] - 1/5/2011
Rep Alexander, Rodney [LA-5] - 1/11/2011
Rep Bartlett, Roscoe G. [MD-6] - 1/5/2011
Rep Bilbray, Brian P. [CA-50] - 1/5/2011
Rep Bilirakis, Gus M. [FL-9] - 1/5/2011
Rep Bishop, Rob [UT-1] - 1/5/2011
Rep Boren, Dan [OK-2] - 1/5/2011
Rep Brooks, Mo [AL-5] - 1/5/2011
Rep Burton, Dan [IN-5] - 1/5/2011
Rep Carter, John R. [TX-31] - 1/5/2011
Rep Conaway, K. Michael [TX-11] - 1/5/2011
Rep Crenshaw, Ander [FL-4] - 1/5/2011
Rep Culberson, John Abney [TX-7] - 1/5/2011
Rep Duncan, Jeff [SC-3] - 1/5/2011
Rep Duncan, John J., Jr. [TN-2] - 1/5/2011
Rep Farenthold, Blake [TX-27] - 1/5/2011
Rep Flake, Jeff [AZ-6] - 1/5/2011
Rep Fleming, John [LA-4] - 1/11/2011
Rep Foxx, Virginia [NC-5] - 1/5/2011
Rep Gingrey, Phil [GA-11] - 1/5/2011
Rep Granger, Kay [TX-12] - 1/6/2011
Rep Graves, Tom [GA-9] - 1/5/2011
Rep Hall, Ralph M. [TX-4] - 1/24/2011
Rep Huelskamp, Tim [KS-1] - 1/24/2011
Rep Issa, Darrell E. [CA-49] - 1/5/2011
Rep King, Steve [IA-5] - 1/5/2011
Rep Kingston, Jack [GA-1] - 1/5/2011
Rep Kline, John [MN-2] - 1/24/2011
Rep Lankford, James [OK-5] - 1/5/2011
Rep Long, Billy [MO-7] - 1/5/2011
Rep McCaul, Michael T. [TX-10] - 1/5/2011
Rep Mica, John L. [FL-7] - 1/5/2011
Rep Miller, Gary G. [CA-42] - 1/5/2011
Rep Miller, Jeff [FL-1] - 1/5/2011
Rep Myrick, Sue Wilkins [NC-9] - 1/5/2011
Rep Neugebauer, Randy [TX-19] - 1/5/2011
Rep Nugent, Richard [FL-5] - 1/5/2011
Rep Olson, Pete [TX-22] - 1/5/2011
Rep Pence, Mike [IN-6] - 1/5/2011
Rep Poe, Ted [TX-2] - 1/5/2011
Rep Pompeo, Mike [KS-4] - 1/5/2011
Rep Posey, Bill [FL-15] - 1/11/2011
Rep Price, Tom [GA-6] - 1/5/2011
Rep Ross, Dennis [FL-12] - 1/5/2011
Rep Scott, Tim [SC-1] - 1/5/2011
Rep Stearns, Cliff [FL-6] - 1/5/2011
Rep Stutzman, Marlin A. [IN-3] - 1/5/2011
Rep Sullivan, John [OK-1] - 1/5/2011
Rep Thornberry, Mac [TX-13] - 1/5/2011
Rep Walberg, Tim [MI-7] - 1/5/2011
Rep Westmoreland, Lynn A. [GA-3] - 1/5/2011
Rep Wittman, Robert J. [VA-1] - 1/5/2011
Rep Young, Don [AK] - 1/5/2011


Why on earth the above members of Congress support the fairtax trap is beyond human comprehension. I wonder if they even took the time to read and study the text of the proposed legislation.


JWK

If we can make the majority of America’s families dependent upon a federal government check, [the alleged fair tax’s family consumption entitlement] we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ___Our Washington Establishment’s Marxist game plan, a plan to establish a federal plantation and redistribute the bread which America’s labor and business has produced.

[fj1200]

BTW, here is a list of Senators...

And here is a list of House members...

And they all deserve our support, thank you for providing the beginnings of a political contribution list. Can you give us the addresses of their reelection campaign HQs?

Why on earth the above members of Congress support the fairtax trap is beyond human comprehension. I wonder if they even took the time to read and study the text of the proposed legislation.

They were clearly beyond the reach of your misinformation.

[fj1200]

J, I would like to explore this a bit; Why do you wish the perpetuation of the current tax code, tax on income, over the FairTax, tax on consumption, when the Founding Fathers proposed what was essentially a consumption tax?

[logroller]

J, I would like to explore this a bit; Why do you wish the perpetuation of the current tax code, tax on income, over the FairTax, tax on consumption, when the Founding Fathers proposed what was essentially a consumption tax?

We still run govt under the Constitution? Could a fooled me.

[fj1200]

We still run govt under the Constitution? Could a fooled me.

Of course not, where do you get such a silly idea?

[logroller]

Of course not, where do you get such a silly idea?

Sorry, I've got that streak of idealism that comes out now and then. Thanks for the check.

[johnwk]

J, I would like to explore this a bit; Why do you wish the perpetuation of the current tax code, tax on income, over the FairTax ……… ?

Why would you write such a thing when I was very clear in what I support which I stated in the FIRST POST IN THE THREAD I wrote:

And what is my solution for tax reform? A return to our Constitution’s ORIGINAL TAX PLAN as our founding fathers intended it to operate and could be put back into practice by adding the following 32 words to our Constitution:

The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money.

And what do the members of Congress who support the “fairtax” want? See H.J.RES 16 which would repeal the 16th Amendment, but does not contain the above wording forbidding Congress to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money And without these words in the repeal of the 16th Amendment Congress maintains power to lay and collect “Excise” taxes calculated from incomes as laid during the Civil War and upheld in Springer vs. United States, or, lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and gains as laid under the Corporate Excise Tax of 1909, upheld in Flint vs. Stone Trace. Keep in mind H.R. 25 proposes to create two new tax collecting agencies, the Excise Tax Bureau to collect any excise taxes Congress dreams up, and, the Sales tax Bureau, and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms will also be collecting taxes!


So, contrary to your charge, I am the one who wants to put a stake through the heart of any federal tax calculated from profits, gains, salaries or other incomes, while members of Congress who support the fairtax want to perpetuate the power of Congress to lay and collect such taxes.


JWK

[fj1200]

Why would you write such a thing when I was very clear in what I support which I stated in the FIRST POST IN THE THREAD I wrote:

Because that didn't answer the question that I asked.

And what do the members of Congress who support the “fairtax” want? ... And without these words in the repeal of the 16th Amendment Congress maintains power to ...

So try and work to that end.

So, contrary to your charge, I am the one who wants to put a stake through the heart of any federal tax calculated from profits, gains, salaries or other incomes, while members of Congress who support the fairtax want to perpetuate the power of Congress to lay and collect such taxes.

Some may but the sponsors are primarily limited government Republicans, feel free to go through the list however.

It would certainly be nice to "put a stake" but it's not going to happen especially with the methods you're employing. Which leaves the options of wishing for the impossible and being stuck with what we have OR working for the possible and the FAR better situation we would be in. You could at least be honest about the FairTax rather than spinning each of your "facts" away from the truth.

[johnwk]

You could at least be honest about the FairTax rather than spinning each of your "facts" away from the truth.

You have the nerve to talk about honesty? So now, in addition to falsely asserting that I “wish the perpetuation of the current tax code” now you are going to falsely assert I’m not being “honest about the FairTax”, but as is usually the case with you, you fail to substantiate you assertions.

Just for the record, please tell me if you find any of the following questions regarding the “fairtax” not answered honestly. The answers are based upon the ACTUAL TEXT OF H.R.25 and, H.J.RES 16


Frequently asked questions regarding the “fairtax” answered.


Does the “fairtax” propose to lay a 23 percent tax upon the sale of new manufactured property? YES


Does the “fairtax” require Mary and Joe Sixpack [as I described them at the top of the thread] to give the federal government a 23 percent cut of the action if they sell the property they have in their labor on weekends by cleaning and painting homes, making handyman repairs, baby sitting, cutting their neighbors lawns, etc.? YES


Will Mary and Joe have to file fairtax returns 12 times a year? YES


Will Mary and Joe have to register with government to sell the property they have in their labor? YES


Will Mary and Joe still be subject to audits? YES


Will Mary and Joe have to keep any records and reports Congress may dream up? YES


In addition to the 23 percent cut Mary and Joe must giver to government on the selling price of their labor, will they also have to pay an additional 23 percent tax upon products they purchase. YES


If H.J RES. 16, the “fairtax” companion legislation to repeal the 16th amendment were adopted by the States, would Congress maintain the authority to lay and collect taxes calculated from incomes? YES! For example Congress will have power to lay and collect the tax calculated from income as was laid during the Civil War and upheld in Springer vs. United States.


Under the fairtax, would Congress maintain power to lay and collect taxes calculated from corporate and business profits and gains? YES For example, Congress would maintain the power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and gains as were laid under the Corporate Excise Tax of 1909 and upheld in Flint vs. Stone Tracy.

Will the IRS be closed down under the “fairtax”. YES, but in its place two new tax collecting agencies will be created, the Excise Tax Bureau and the Sales tax Bureau, and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms will also be collecting taxes!

Does the “fairtax” propose to send a monthly check to people who are not gainfully employed and on the public dole? YES


Why is the “fairtax” called a “progressive” tax by fairtax.org? Probably because it proposes to redistribute wealth from those who pay taxes to those who are not gainfully employed and on the public dole.


Is the “fairtax” a proposal for a massive expansion of what Congress may tax? YES. See above for details.


JWK



If we can make the majority of America’s families dependent upon a federal government check, [the alleged fair tax’s family consumption entitlement] we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ___Our Washington Establishment’s Marxist game plan, a plan to establish a federal plantation and redistribute the bread which America’s labor and business has produced.