Beware of the Huckabee/Herman Cain “fairtax“!

[fj1200]

You have the nerve to talk about honesty? So now, in addition to falsely asserting that I “wish the perpetuation of the current tax code” now you are going to falsely assert I’m not being “honest about the FairTax”, but as is usually the case with you, you fail to substantiate you assertions.

Nothing false about my assertions about you or otherwise. Mine are fully substantiated, unlike yours.

Just for the record, please tell me if you find any of the following questions regarding the “fairtax” not answered honestly. The answers are based upon the ACTUAL TEXT OF H.R.25 and, H.J.RES 16


Frequently asked questions regarding the “fairtax” answered.


Does the “fairtax” propose to lay a 23 percent tax upon the sale of new manufactured property? YES

Yes, it ELIMINATES all other Fed taxes.

Does the “fairtax” require Mary and Joe Sixpack [as I described them at the top of the thread] to give the federal government a 23 percent cut of the action if they sell the property they have in their labor on weekends by cleaning and painting homes, making handyman repairs, baby sitting, cutting their neighbors lawns, etc.? YES

No, they provide a service and the Fairtax is a tax on the consumption of goods and services. It is paid by the consumer NOT the producer.

Will Mary and Joe have to file fairtax returns 12 times a year? YES

Yes, how many times do they file now? At least quarterly, sometimes more often depending on size iirc.

Will Mary and Joe have to register with government to sell the property they have in their labor? YES

Yes, they do so NOW. Are you unaware of W-2s?

Will Mary and Joe still be subject to audits? YES

Yes, they are subject now. Are you unaware of the IRS?

Will Mary and Joe have to keep any records and reports Congress may dream up? YES

Yes, they are subject now.

In addition to the 23 percent cut Mary and Joe must giver to government on the selling price of their labor, will they also have to pay an additional 23 percent tax upon products they purchase. YES

No, they don't pay taxes on their services provided and No, the "additional" tax is in lieu of all other Fed taxes. Asked and answered previously.

If H.J RES. 16, the “fairtax” companion legislation to repeal the 16th amendment were adopted by the States, would Congress maintain the authority to lay and collect taxes calculated from incomes? YES! For example Congress will have power to lay and collect the tax calculated from income as was laid during the Civil War and upheld in Springer vs. United States.

Under the fairtax, would Congress maintain power to lay and collect taxes calculated from corporate and business profits and gains? YES For example, Congress would maintain the power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and gains as were laid under the Corporate Excise Tax of 1909 and upheld in Flint vs. Stone Tracy.

Possibly, let's get that changed. Work for the possible, not the impossible.

Will the IRS be closed down under the “fairtax”. YES, but in its place two new tax collecting agencies will be created, the Excise Tax Bureau and the Sales tax Bureau, and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms will also be collecting taxes!

I suppose, taxes need to be collected. How many taxing authorities under your plan?

Does the “fairtax” propose to send a monthly check to people who are not gainfully employed and on the public dole? YES

Yes, to ensure that NO ONE is subject to taxation at the poverty level. The public dole is a different subject, first things first.

Why is the “fairtax” called a “progressive” tax by fairtax.org? Probably because it proposes to redistribute wealth from those who pay taxes to those who are not gainfully employed and on the public dole.

No, it's progressive because they believe that the rich will automatically consume more than the poor thereby ensuring progressivity. Redistribution is NOT in the Republicans game plan.

Is the “fairtax” a proposal for a massive expansion of what Congress may tax? YES. See above for details.

No. And that is the perfect example of you spinning your "facts" away from the reality of the FairTax. You claim/imply that is an expansion of the tax base when in reality it is a shifting of taxation away from income and towards consumption. You ignore the embedding of the current tax code towards the transparency of the FairTax. You ignore the intrusiveness of the current code and the simplicity of the FairTax.

So try and acknowledge the benefits of what the FairTax does with some honesty. And like I said wishing for the impossible leaves us with the current system at the expense of what is possible, that is why I state that you "are working for the perpetuation of the current tax code" and I stand by it.

[Missileman]

Does the “fairtax” require Mary and Joe Sixpack [as I described them at the top of the thread] to give the federal government a 23 percent cut of the action if they sell the property they have in their labor on weekends by cleaning and painting homes, making handyman repairs, baby sitting, cutting their neighbors lawns, etc.? YES

This statement alone is proof you haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about. Mary and Joe won't be paying the government 23% of their profit or as you call it, "give a cut of the action". The people who use Mary's and Joe's services will pay an additional 23% in the form of a tax.

Get an adult to take you to a store and explain sales tax to you.

[johnwk]

Originally Posted by johnwk
Does the “fairtax” require Mary and Joe Sixpack [as I described them at the top of the thread] to give the federal government a 23 percent cut of the action if they sell the property they have in their labor on weekends by cleaning and painting homes, making handyman repairs, baby sitting, cutting their neighbors lawns, etc.? YES

This statement alone is proof you haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about. Mary and Joe won't be paying the government 23% of their profit or as you call it, "give a cut of the action". The people who use Mary's and Joe's services will pay an additional 23% in the form of a tax.

Get an adult to take you to a store and explain sales tax to you.

Oh, but I didn’t say Mary and Joe would be paying the government 23% of the “profit“. The irrefutable fact is, Mary and Joe, when selling the property they have in their labor, will have to give the federal government 23 percent of the selling price of their labor. In addition, Mary and Joe Sixpack, ordinary working people who have full time jobs and dare to sell the property they have in their labor on weekends cleaning homes, baby sitting, mowing lawns, painting homes and other handyman chores, must first register with government to sell the property they have in their labor, give the federal government a 23 percent cut of the selling price of their labor, file fair tax returns 12 freaken times a year under the penalty of perjury, and, after all this crap they will have to pay an additional 23 percent tax on articles they purchase.

Why do you support expanding the taxing arm of Congress with an additional tax, the alleged "fairtax", which will only be used to feed and enlarge the pig in Washington?


JWK


If we can make the majority of America’s families dependent upon a federal government check, [the alleged fair tax’s family consumption entitlement] we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ___Our Washington Establishment’s Marxist game plan, a plan to establish a federal plantation and redistribute the bread which America’s labor and business has produced.

[fj1200]

Oh, but I didn’t say Mary and Joe would be paying the government 23% of the “profit“. The irrefutable fact is, Mary and Joe, when selling the property they have in their labor, will have to give the federal government 23 percent of the selling price of their labor. In addition, Mary and Joe Sixpack, ordinary working people who have full time jobs and dare to sell the property they have in their labor on weekends cleaning homes, baby sitting, mowing lawns, painting homes and other handyman chores, must first register with government to sell the property they have in their labor, give the federal government a 23 percent cut of the selling price of their labor, file fair tax returns 12 freaken times a year under the penalty of perjury, and, after all this crap they will have to pay an additional 23 percent tax on articles they purchase.

More spinning of "facts" and outright falsehoods I see. Why didn't you take the opportunity to respond to my post? Let's have some good back and forth rather than your repetition of disputed talking points.

Why do you support expanding the taxing arm of Congress with an additional tax, the alleged "fairtax", which will only be used to feed and enlarge the pig in Washington?

The fact that you won't admit the obvious crushes your already thin credibility on the subject.

[johnwk]

Why didn't you take the opportunity to respond to my post?

Because I’m not interested in you silly commentary and editorializing of the facts I posted in POST NO.30. I’m only interested in what I have posted are the facts.

JWK


If we can make the majority of America’s families dependent upon a federal government check, [the alleged fair tax’s family consumption entitlement] we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ___Our Washington Establishment’s Marxist game plan, a plan to establish a federal plantation and redistribute the bread which America’s labor and business has produced.

[logroller]

Because I’m not interested in you silly commentary and editorializing of the facts I posted in POST NO.30. I’m only interested in what I have posted are the facts.
.

I still don't understand the property and labor tie. It seems to me if I buy a house, fix it up, maintain it, rebuild it from the ground-up or do nothing at all, just resell -- the buyer pays a tax of 23% of the value, but the seller keeps any net proceed or loss. I can see how this could be detrimental to the number of transactions, but I don't see how it is a disincentive to labor. If anything it sounds like a bear market, where the seller has to work harder to appeal to the buyer.

[Missileman]

Oh, but I didn’t say Mary and Joe would be paying the government 23% of the “profit“. The irrefutable fact is, Mary and Joe, when selling the property they have in their labor, will have to give the federal government 23 percent of the selling price of their labor.

Are you really under the delusion that if you repeat something often enough it becomes true?

Let's look at an example: Joe sells some of his plumbing skills to a neighbor. Joe does $100 worth of plumbing. He charges his neighbor $123. Joe puts $100 in his pocket and sends the $23 to the government. The tax didn't cost Joe anything.

I can't believe I'm having to explain this to you.

[DragonStryk72]

More spinning of "facts" and outright falsehoods I see. Why didn't you take the opportunity to respond to my post? Let's have some good back and forth rather than your repetition of disputed talking points.



The fact that you won't admit the obvious crushes your already thin credibility on the subject.

Hm, I believe I mentioned him doing this earlier in the thread... Yeah, this is where it all breaks down for him.

[DragonStryk72]

Because I’m not interested in you silly commentary and editorializing of the facts I posted in POST NO.30. I’m only interested in what I have posted are the facts.

JWK

Oh thank God, you finally admit it. You don't care what evidence is brought forward, you're already set. You are not here to debate or discussion, just to bludgeon people with your way in the least productive manner possible. See? We just needed the admission

[fj1200]

Because I’m not interested in you silly commentary and editorializing of the facts I posted in POST NO.30. I’m only interested in what I have posted are the facts.

I already showed you how those were wrong. Now if you want to respond to that, then that might be progress.

[fj1200]

I still don't understand the property and labor tie. It seems to me if I buy a house, fix it up, maintain it, rebuild it from the ground-up or do nothing at all, just resell -- the buyer pays a tax of 23% of the value, but the seller keeps any net proceed or loss. I can see how this could be detrimental to the number of transactions, but I don't see how it is a disincentive to labor. If anything it sounds like a bear market, where the seller has to work harder to appeal to the buyer.

Only new goods are subject to the FairTax, resells are not so your house example doesn't hold up completely. You would likely pay the FT when you purchase home improvement items and the sale would be a non-tax event.

Are you really under the delusion that if you repeat something often enough it becomes true?

Let's look at an example: Joe sells some of his plumbing skills to a neighbor. Joe does $100 worth of plumbing. He charges his neighbor $123. Joe puts $100 in his pocket and sends the $23 to the government. The tax didn't cost Joe anything.

I can't believe I'm having to explain this to you.

Neither can we.

Hm, I believe I mentioned him doing this earlier in the thread... Yeah, this is where it all breaks down for him.

It breaks down for him at many points along the way it would seem.

[johnwk]

Oh, but I didn’t say Mary and Joe would be paying the government 23% of the “profit“. The irrefutable fact is, Mary and Joe, when selling the property they have in their labor, will have to give the federal government 23 percent of the selling price of their labor.

Let's look at an example: Joe sells some of his plumbing skills to a neighbor. Joe does $100 worth of plumbing. He charges his neighbor $123. Joe puts $100 in his pocket and sends the $23 to the government.

Exactly! The federal government gets a 23 percent cut of the selling price of the property which Joe has in his labor and Joe must send in the federal government’s cut 12 times a year when filing fairtax returns.


I'm glad you finally got it.

JWK



If we can make the majority of America’s families dependent upon a federal government check, [the alleged fair tax’s family consumption entitlement] we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s productive population enslaved to pay the bills ___Our Washington Establishment’s Marxist game plan, a plan to establish a federal plantation and redistribute the bread which America’s labor and business has produced.

[Missileman]

Exactly! The federal government gets a 23 percent cut of the selling price of the property which Joe has in his labor and Joe must send in the federal government’s cut 12 times a year when filing fairtax returns.


I'm glad you finally got it.

JWK

It's a real shame that you still don't. The government isn't taking anything away from Joe. Your use of the term "cut" is totally disingenuous.

[johnwk]

It's a real shame that you still don't. The government isn't taking anything away from Joe. Your use of the term "cut" is totally disingenuous.

I’m rather amazed you would make that claim since the truth cannot be changed to what it is not. The irrefutable facts are:

Mary and Joe Sixpack when selling the property they have in their labor [cleaning and painting homes on weekends, baby sitting, mowing lawns in their neighbor, and doing other handyman type chores to earn extra money to pay the bills], will have to collect and send to the federal government a 23 percent “fairtax” on the selling price of their labor, and file fairtax returns 12 freaken times a year under the penalty of perjury.

BTW, I didn’t know that you were a fan of a big blotted federal government to such a degree that you would favor two new federal taxes to feed the pig in Washington ___ a new 23 percent tax upon the sale of newly manufactured property, and, a new 23 percent tax upon the sale of property which working people have in their labor ___ while keeping alive Congress’ power to lay and collect taxes calculated from income, as was laid during the civil war and upheld in Springer vs. United States, and, also allowing Congress to maintain the power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and gains as was laid under the Corporate Excise Tax of 1909 which was upheld in Flint vs. Stone Tracy.

I guess being a fan of a big bloated federal government would explain why you also favor redistributing taxes from the federal treasury to those on the public dole and not gainfully employed under the “fairtax” family consumption entitlement. Why do you want to create a new entitlement? Do you have that burning desire to “spread the wealth” like Obama does?

Just for the record Missileman, there was a time in our country when even the unemployed were expected and required to contribute their fair share in meeting the expenses of government. A wonderful example of this principle is exhibited in the public laws of Maryland’s Dorchester County, under which all able bodied residents of the county above twenty and under fifty years of age were “compelled to labor two days at least in every year in repairing the roads of said county, with the privilege, however, of furnishing a substitute or paying to the road supervisors seventy-five cents for each day such person may be summoned to labor, the money thus paid to be expended in repairing the roads.”

And the law went on to indicate that “anyone neglecting or refusing to perform such labor, or to provide a substitute, or to pay seventy-five cents per day for each and every day he may be summoned to work, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and upon trial and conviction before a Justice of the Peace, shall be fined seventy-five cents for each day`s delinquency and costs, and shall stand committed until the fine and costs are paid.”___ SEE SHORT vs. STATE OF MARYLAND, decided February 27th, 1895, upholding the law and not violating (a) the 13th or 14th Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, or (b) the 40th section of Art. 3 of the Constitution of Maryland.


So tell me Missileman, why do you want to “spread the wealth” and create a family consumption entitlement which would send a monthly bonus check to those already on the public dole and not gainfully employed?


JWK

Our tyrant in the White House forces the productive to pay taxes so he can spread their wealth, but he does not force his beloved 40 % who pay no income taxes to work for the taxes they get.

[fj1200]

The irrefutable facts are:

I see you still don't have the capacity to respond to my counter to your "facts."