Netanyahu's speech to Congress shows America will buy anything

[Kathianne]

i won't discuss that subject again, i have already done that and provided quotations for Israelian leaders saying that they knew that Egypt was never going to start war but still they had to take that chance to occupy Sinai.

in short:
US President sent a message to Nasser through the Egyptian ambassador in USA, US President warned Nasser from the consequences if Egypt started the war and urged Nasser not to be the first one to attack.

same night at 3 AM, the Soviet Union ambassador in Egypt asked for an urgent meeting with Nasser, and then he told Nasser at the meeting that the Soviet Union urges Egypt not to start the war.

both US and Soviet Union assured Egypt that Israel would never attack, thats why Nasser refused the requests from Marshal Field Amer to start a preempitive war against Israel because everyone anticipated Israelian attack, but Nasser refused repeatedly and insisted that all Egyptian troops in Sinai act as defensive troops, and never to start the war according to the US and SU requests and assurances.



"King Hussein arrived in Cairo on 30 May and committed Jordan to the United Arab Command—an alliance which also included Egypt and Syria—under the command of Egyptian general Muhammad Sidqi. Amer anticipated an Israeli attack and advocated Egypt launch a preemptive strike. He was backed by former Syrian prime minister Amin al-Hafiz. Due to assurances, however, from the American administration and the USSR that Israel would not attack, Nasser refused Amer's suggestion, insisting that Egyptian forces in the Sinai should only act defensively. In addition, he questioned the Egyptian military's readiness since the air force lacked pilots, the army reserve lacked training"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamal_A..._and_aftermath


Israelian leaders knew that all the Egyptian troops in Sinai were of defensive nature, they were sent to the borders because of a soviet intel that said that israel is going to attack Syria and Egypt had a mutual defense pact with Syria so we had to be ready in case of war.

So now you are saying the 'super powers, whomever they may be' have ultimate power over the ME? You do realize what you are saying, right? Note please, it's not recognized yet, but the former Soviet Union, along with today's Russia, and today's US, none are super powers. You do get that? Right.

[Kathianne]

So now you are saying the 'super powers, whomever they may be' have ultimate power over the ME? You do realize what you are saying, right? Note please, it's not recognized yet, but the former Soviet Union, along with today's Russia, and today's US, none are super powers. You do get that? Right.

The US couldn't control/contain Israel if it wanted to. Hell, we can't control our own borders. We can't afford our military, no matter what debt ceiling is implemented or any budget agreed to. We are toast.

So Abso, good luck to the Arabs, Islam folks, it's your time. Ours is past. That doesn't mean we won't cause problems, we will. However the time is over. Hang in there with the cockroaches.

[revelarts]

its not the matter of people being happy, its lands being occupied illegaly, they have to return it wether they like it or not, they can't keep using their security as an excuse to occupy lands, they can't keep building illegal settlements while defying the whole world which asks for the settlements build to stop !!!


does the whole world ask israel to go back to 67 borders just to make Hamas happy or because its the right thing to do ?

and yes is my answer, many people will be glad and happy if israel went back to 67 borders, its a start, something to build our mutual trust on, but how can the arabs be at peace with israel while it refuses to return the lands it stole ???

and you can notice that i said many not all, because you can never make everyone happy and content, but at least you can try to achieve justice which is something Israel is not willing to do.

See this my problem "its a start...".
It's"...something to build on" but not much left for Israel to build on literally is there though?

It just seems to me there's no way to satisfy most of the middle east except by the TOTAL ELIMINATION of Israel.
How is Israel suppose to negotiate "reasonably" if the goal of the other sides is your Elimination. That crazy.

If i'm wrong please tell me what land really belongs to Israel from your point of view.

[fj1200]

1967 war

OK, not sure if you were talking about one of the other conflicts where Israel defended itself against attack. Kathianne's post is pretty damning.

i am not talking about them being poor or rich, i am talking about their right in the occupied land, we are not discussing their economic position, we are discussing the occupied land which israel has annexed illegaly.

I'm talking about other ways in which a real peace could be secured. As long as the leaders can rile up a poor population against the myth of oppression then peace can't be obtained. We had a recent thread going on about this, I wish you had commented on it.

egypt was poor when we got Sinai back, and we are still poor, very large debts, but that didn't stop us from reclaiming Sinai via all possible means, war and diplomacy, when your neighbour occupy your house, you won't think much about geting paid more in your job to be able to buy a new house, you will think about how you can get back your house, because that's your right.

That is largely my point. Israel has embraced freedom and they have achieved prosperity. The Palestinians and Arabs in general have not.

Regarding the house; Did I repeatedly threaten my neighbor from my house? Was I taking shots at his house from my house? Am I still belligerent from my other house right next door? Was I massing huge amounts of friends and ammunition from my house during my threats against his house? Am I repeatedly being told that my life is worse because my neighbor took my house away rather than working on making my own situation better which may lead me to getting my house back in the first place? Rhetorical questions I know.

BTW, What is your opinion of Arabs living in Israel?

[abso]

So you have a huge number of very educated Jews, a very few of which are agreeing with the mobs, we know about that, we have them too. Problem for Israel, they are small and the opposition has no moderating influence folks, as you've now proved.

Indeed, with this last post, you've proved yourself not a moderate, but a person that wants annihilation of Israel. I'm ashamed that I ever HOPED, not counted, on making friends with you. Not possible.

So do you have your Muslim Brotherhood card? Are you ready to kill all those not Sharia compliant? You are becoming whom you feared. Good luck with that, it's not going to get better, only worse.

okay, i am not going to laugh and i am not going to be sarcastic about what you said although you have used your usual method, to condemn me for anything you hate just because i am a muslim, and to accuse me of everything i am not.

1. I never belonged to any Islamic group and never participated in any activity supervisied by any Islamic group and i would never join the MB.

2. I never asked for the annihilation of Israel.

3. I never said that i would kill anyone who doesn't comply with the sharia law.

4. I never agreed with killing anyone on any side, except soliders in war zones.

5. I never agreed with killing any civilian of any nationality or race or religion who lives in any place even war zones, not even as collateral damage which is a principle that i don't believe in.

6. If i have to kill 5 israeli civilians along with 10,000 israeli solider, i would refuse to do that, because i have no believe in the collateral damage principle, i refuse to accept any civilian casualities of any number or any ratio.

7. I never treated women in a bad manner and never will, i am very sure that i treat women better than any man you have ever seen in your life, and if you really knew me in reality you would have seen this yourself, i never treat women as inferior humans, maybe someday my gf will agree to participate in this forum and then you can ask her yourself about the way i treat her.

8. the thing about me and you being friends, although i like to treat everyone in a good manner and befriend everyone, but you have proved yourself to be very biased against me and my religion, you have your justifications due to the current problems and misunderstandings between our cultures, but i think that i have let go of such problems and misunderstandings, and i am ready to befriend everyone, but apparently you still can't.

[abso]

Okay, so you admit that Israel would then have to defend those borders. so what you're saying is that they should surrender land that has acted as a defensive bulwark for them so that they can be attacked again, this time with no buffer between the enemy and Israel's innocent civilians.

Perhaps if Hamas would stop being rat bastards at every turn, people would feel differently, but that's just not the reality. No one is going to cede their only shield while being assailed on all sides. You are asking them to act blatantly against their own survival, and not even for peace or safety. Blaming Hamas after the fact will not do anything for the dead women and children that will result from their attacks.

And why are we trusting Palestine, btw? Given the sheer number of times they've broken treaty and cease-fires, what sane person would trust them again?

i didn't admit that Hamas would attack again, i said "if", if hamas attacked again then UN forces will deal with it, and maybe egyptian forces will participate, we can put UN forces on the borders, so that Hamas can never fire, because in such case they would be attacking everyone including US and EU.

[abso]

nassar said he wouldn't fire first. He wouldn't have too. There were plenty of other countries that would do that. He could sit back until it started and then join his allies.

The pals can consider themselves lucky. If the arabs had broken through Israels defenses they would have been going up against American forces. I don't know how many were waiting to go to Israel but my whole brigade was on stand by for three days.

your brigade were on stand by and would have stayed on stand by forever whoever started it, because USA would never risk WWIII for israel security, and i am sure that you already know that any american involvement would have made the soviet union involvement inevitable.

and no arab country could have started the war, none in the arabs dare to start a war with israel withouth egyptian participation, and Nasser would have never gave his permission to any other arab state to fire first, because his promise to US and SU was a binding promise for all the arab states.

and again you can read the quotations by israelian leaders admitting that they already knew that all the Egyptian forces in Sinai were of defensive nature, and were never intended for a war, Nasser lacked pilots, we had more planes than we could operate, so as an ex-army, do you imagine any army going to war without air cover ?

[abso]

So now you are saying the 'super powers, whomever they may be' have ultimate power over the ME? You do realize what you are saying, right? Note please, it's not recognized yet, but the former Soviet Union, along with today's Russia, and today's US, none are super powers. You do get that? Right.

who said anything about today's Russia and today's US ?

i was speaking about the situation at the time of the war, not now, and anyway, why do you consider Russia and US not super powers now ?

[abso]

The US couldn't control/contain Israel if it wanted to. Hell, we can't control our own borders. We can't afford our military, no matter what debt ceiling is implemented or any budget agreed to. We are toast.

So Abso, good luck to the Arabs, Islam folks, it's your time. Ours is past. That doesn't mean we won't cause problems, we will. However the time is over. Hang in there with the cockroaches.

first time i see you using insults, seems that you have fallen to what i call "the jim zone", i wished that you could have remained respectful as you have always been, but seems that speaking respectfully is a very rare virtue in this forum, few are able to do so.

anyway, in my opinion US is still a super power, leaving debt aside, i don't measure the power by the standard of money, i measure it by technological advancement, maybe thats because technology is what i study and like, but i think its true enough, that technology is the power now, arabs have more money than you can imagine, but still not powerfull enough, maybe we could destroy the wolrd economy by just preventing oil supplies for few weeks, but then what ?, will we be able to create our own weapons, our own cars, our own computers ?, when the arabs can achieve the technological advancement that US have, only then you can say that your time is over, and that time won't be soon, so in my opinion, US is still the most powerfull country in the world and you are not history yet.

[abso]

See this my problem "its a start...".
It's"...something to build on" but not much left for Israel to build on literally is there though?

It just seems to me there's no way to satisfy most of the middle east except by the TOTAL ELIMINATION of Israel.
How is Israel suppose to negotiate "reasonably" if the goal of the other sides is your Elimination. That crazy.

If i'm wrong please tell me what land really belongs to Israel from your point of view.

in my point of view, i accept 67 borders, and if i am in control of the arab states i would sign a peace agreement based on 67 borders with my promise to peaceful coexistence without any wars.

but that is not an approval of the legality of israel existence, as Ghandi once said that he accepts pakistan existence as a fact, but he doesn't have to accept the legality of the creation of pakistan.

so you don't have to force the arabs to accept the legality of israel existence, because in fact the UN partition plan was not a binding order so it has no legal basis, and the israel creation itself is not legal, but now its a fact, and i can't go and tell the people who was born there to leave and find some place to live, they have done nothing wrong.

so, if israel goes back to 67 borders, i would accept its existence as a fact, and i would never think about waging any war against them, i would recognize the 67 borders as the israelian country, and i would recognize those lands as their lands which belongs to them.


now, can you tell me from your point of view, what land really belongs to israel ?

[Kathianne]

first time i see you using insults, seems that you have fallen to what i call "the jim zone", i wished that you could have remained respectful as you have always been, but seems that speaking respectfully is a very rare virtue in this forum, few are able to do so.

anyway, in my opinion US is still a super power, leaving debt aside, i don't measure the power by the standard of money, i measure it by technological advancement, maybe thats because technology is what i study and like, but i think its true enough, that technology is the power now, arabs have more money than you can imagine, but still not powerfull enough, maybe we could destroy the wolrd economy by just preventing oil supplies for few weeks, but then what ?, will we be able to create our own weapons, our own cars, our own computers ?, when the arabs can achieve the technological advancement that US have, only then you can say that your time is over, and that time won't be soon, so in my opinion, US is still the most powerfull country in the world and you are not history yet.

Oh but you should consider both money and debt when looking at governments. Think France in 1938, the 'world' thought it was still a major military power, it acted as though it was. It was a shell after the Great War. Think of the fall of the USSR, what had been presumed to be a Superpower, couldn't maintain it's nuclear arsenal or even its infrastructure. If you think the US can continue its technology today, you really are delusional. You aren't alone though, many in this country don't see what's ahead either.

[abso]

I'm talking about other ways in which a real peace could be secured. As long as the leaders can rile up a poor population against the myth of oppression then peace can't be obtained. We had a recent thread going on about this, I wish you had commented on it.

i completely agree, but about me not being here to comment on them, blame the one who banned me.

Regarding the house; Did I repeatedly threaten my neighbor from my house? Was I taking shots at his house from my house? Am I still belligerent from my other house right next door? Was I massing huge amounts of friends and ammunition from my house during my threats against his house? Am I repeatedly being told that my life is worse because my neighbor took my house away rather than working on making my own situation better which may lead me to getting my house back in the first place? Rhetorical questions I know.

logical questions, but does threatening to attack is the same in law as attacking ?, does threatening to steal your friend's care makes you responsible for buying him a new car if someone else stole his car ?

massing defensive troops on the borders according to a soviet intel that said israel is going to attack, is that considered as a crime now ?

gaving your promise to the 2 existing superpowers that no arab will start the war, and abiding by your word, and losing sinai because of that promise, is that the fair price to pay for abiding by your promise ?

BTW, What is your opinion of Arabs living in Israel?

i like the idea of coexistence, i wish everyone could do that allover the world, but the fact remains that arabs are being treated badly within israel.

even the treatment of Sephardic in israel is very different then the way Ashkenazi are being treated.

racism is still applied in israel till now.

[abso]

Oh but you should consider both money and debt when looking at governments. Think France in 1938, the 'world' thought it was still a major military power, it acted as though it was. It was a shell after the Great War. Think of the fall of the USSR, what had been presumed to be a Superpower, couldn't maintain it's nuclear arsenal or even its infrastructure. If you think the US can continue its technology today, you really are delusional. You aren't alone though, many in this country don't see what's ahead either.

i know that reaching 14,000 billion in debt isn't an easy disaster to recover from, but the nice thing in USA is that the industry and technological research is not completely dependant on the federal government, most of the technological advancements are achieved through private institutions as i think, and such institutions won't be affected much by the federal debt, maybe the federal government is collapsing but the private sectors isn't much affected by that, and even when it gets affected, the private sector has proved itself able to recover fast from any crisis in contrary to governments.

at least that's my opinion which maybe completely wrong, i am still young and don't really know much about the interior matters of USA and how the country is being run.

[fj1200]

i completely agree, but about me not being here to comment on them, blame the one who banned me.

You were banned? Too much of that goes on around here.

logical questions, but does threatening to attack is the same in law as attacking ?, does threatening to steal your friend's care makes you responsible for buying him a new car if someone else stole his car ?

massing defensive troops on the borders according to a soviet intel that said israel is going to attack, is that considered as a crime now ?

gaving your promise to the 2 existing superpowers that no arab will start the war, and abiding by your word, and losing sinai because of that promise, is that the fair price to pay for abiding by your promise ?

Now we're talking about cars? I'd say massing troops on the border is more than defensive.

i like the idea of coexistence, i wish everyone could do that allover the world, but the fact remains that arabs are being treated badly within israel.

even the treatment of Sephardic in israel is very different then the way Ashkenazi are being treated.

racism is still applied in israel till now.

Such as?

[Kathianne]

i know that reaching 14,000 billion in debt isn't an easy disaster to recover from, but the nice thing in USA is that the industry and technological research is not completely dependant on the federal government, most of the technological advancements are achieved through private institutions as i think, and such institutions won't be affected much by the federal debt, maybe the federal government is collapsing but the private sectors isn't much affected by that, and even when it gets affected, the private sector has proved itself able to recover fast from any crisis in contrary to governments.

at least that's my opinion which maybe completely wrong, i am still young and don't really know much about the interior matters of USA and how the country is being run.

No you don't understand how the US and business operates. As I said, look at the two examples given or any major power in history.