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  1. #1
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    Default Do we really believe in Democracy?

    If we are really trying to establish a democracy in Iraq, it would seem to me that one of the defining premises of a democracy is obeying the will of the people. Not only has the U.S. and its people ignored the 80% of Iraqis (without Kurds it would be closer to 90%) who want the occupiers to leave immediately or in 6 months (this poll was taken 8 months ago), but now there is a majority within the Iraqi parliament who are calling for a withdrawal:


    Majority of Iraqi Lawmakers Now Reject Occupation
    By Raed Jarrar and Joshua Holland
    AlterNet.org

    Wednesday 09 May 2007

    More than half of the members of Iraq's parliament rejected for the first time on Tuesday the continuing occupation of their country. The US media ignored the story.
    On Tuesday, without note in the U.S. media, more than half of the members of Iraq's parliament rejected the continuing occupation of their country. 144 lawmakers signed onto a legislative petition calling on the United States to set a timetable for withdrawal, according to Nassar Al-Rubaie, a spokesman for the Al Sadr movement, the nationalist Shia group that sponsored the petition.

    It's a hugely significant development. Lawmakers demanding an end to the occupation now have the upper hand in the Iraqi legislature for the first time; previous attempts at a similar resolution fell just short of the 138 votes needed to pass (there are 275 members of the Iraqi parliament, but many have fled the country's civil conflict, and at times it's been difficult to arrive at a quorum).

    Reached by phone in Baghdad on Tuesday, Al-Rubaie said that he would present the petition, which is nonbinding, to the speaker of the Iraqi parliament and demand that a binding measure be put to a vote. Under Iraqi law, the speaker must present a resolution that's called for by a majority of lawmakers, but there are significant loopholes and what will happen next is unclear.

    What is clear is that while the U.S. Congress dickers over timelines and benchmarks, Baghdad faces a major political showdown of its own. The major schism in Iraqi politics is not between Sunni and Shia or supporters of the Iraqi government and "anti-government forces," nor is it a clash of "moderates" against "radicals"; the defining battle for Iraq at the political level today is between nationalists trying to hold the Iraqi state together and separatists backed, so far, by the United States and Britain.

    The continuing occupation of Iraq and the allocation of Iraq's resources - especially its massive oil and natural gas deposits - are the defining issues that now separate an increasingly restless bloc of nationalists in the Iraqi parliament from the administration of Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, whose government is dominated by Shiite, Sunni and Kurdish separatists.
    ...[for more go to http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/050907R.shtml]


    I find it interesting how some use examples of "united" Iraqis as a sign of progress. Indeed it is progress for the Iraqi people who have been bitterly divided by the occupation. But as stated in the article, the key elements of this newfound nationalism is expelling the occupiers and rejecting American privatization of Iraq's natural resources--2 elements that are unacceptable to the White House. If we continue our blind arrogance and anti-democratic attitude towards the Iraqi people, God help us if one day we have to fight a united insurgency.

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    sadr's boys want us out, isn't that a surprise. How come the dems aren't all over this story? Could it be because its just that, a story?

    The only iraqi's that want us out are sadr and his followers. He wants so badly to take saddams place as the big kahuna in iraq.
    When I die I'm sure to go to heaven, cause I spent my time in hell.

    You get more with a kind word and a two by four, than you do with just a kind word.

  3. #3
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    Default Again, ignoring the will of ordinary Iraqis

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaffer View Post
    sadr's boys want us out, isn't that a surprise. How come the dems aren't all over this story? Could it be because its just that, a story?

    The only iraqi's that want us out are sadr and his followers. He wants so badly to take saddams place as the big kahuna in iraq.
    Well, now that "story" is in the WP:

    Iraqi Lawmakers Back Bill on US Withdrawal
    By Joshua Partlow
    The Washington Post

    Friday 11 May 2007

    Baghdad - A majority of members of Iraq's parliament have signed a draft bill that would require a timetable for the withdrawal of U.S. soldiers from Iraq and freeze current troop levels. The development was a sign of a growing division between Iraq's legislators and prime minister that mirrors the widening gulf between the Bush administration and its critics in Congress.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews


    As you will notice, there is support for this resolution among Sunnis, Shiite, and Kurds--not just "followers of Sadr."

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    Have a referendum. All Iraqis can vote, if they vote us out, we leave and save face too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaffer View Post
    sadr's boys want us out, isn't that a surprise. How come the dems aren't all over this story? Could it be because its just that, a story?

    The only iraqi's that want us out are sadr and his followers.
    Sadr's followers make up slightly MORE than 50% of Iraqis.

    So it is more than just a minor story.

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    If Bush is smart, he'll make it clear that he has heard the majority. Set his own timelines, allowing them a small window, say 2 weeks, to make clear their wants. Then follow where it leads.

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    but the president wants us to stay for two more years.....

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...1/wiraq111.xml

    "I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is."

    ~Albert Camus

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    Quote Originally Posted by manu1959 View Post
    but the president wants us to stay for two more years.....

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...1/wiraq111.xml
    There's a disconnect between the President and the PM and the parliament? Not unusual.
    "Unbloodybreakable" DCI Gene Hunt, 2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by loosecannon View Post
    Sadr's followers make up slightly MORE than 50% of Iraqis.

    So it is more than just a minor story.
    Wrong they make up about 50% of the shea. Not all iraqi's.

    And I haven't seen a thing from any of the iraqi bloggers I read that there is a time line being considered by the iraqi government. Seems they would know something about that if it was being considered.
    When I die I'm sure to go to heaven, cause I spent my time in hell.

    You get more with a kind word and a two by four, than you do with just a kind word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaffer View Post
    Wrong they make up about 50% of the shea. Not all iraqi's.

    And I haven't seen a thing from any of the iraqi bloggers I read that there is a time line being considered by the iraqi government. Seems they would know something about that if it was being considered.
    50% of the Shia is still 30% of Iraqis and I think you are wrong.

    I think Sadr can snap his fingers and every Shia in Iraq would take up arms in his name. Everything I have read about Sadr says that his influence is underestimated by everybody outside Iraq.

    Sadr's bloc comprises 30% of the parliment. But the Medhi Army is by far the strongest militia in Iraq.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    If Bush is smart, he'll make it clear that he has heard the majority. Set his own timelines, allowing them a small window, say 2 weeks, to make clear their wants. Then follow where it leads.
    I am astonished. No shocked. No shitfaced. No, can not even believe that you said that.

    You are kidding right? I thought you were a Bushbot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by loosecannon View Post
    50% of the Shia is still 30% of Iraqis and I think you are wrong.

    I think Sadr can snap his fingers and every Shia in Iraq would take up arms in his name. Everything I have read about Sadr says that his influence is underestimated by everybody outside Iraq.

    Sadr's bloc comprises 30% of the parliment. But the Medhi Army is by far the strongest militia in Iraq.
    And the medhi army is part of what's being dismantled in the surge. sadr has lost a lot of power since he ran off to iraq. I'm sure he plans to return and stir things up as soon as we leave tho. The iraqi government needs to arrest his ass and execute him as quickly as posible if they want to survive. Otherwise he will become another saddam under iran's thumb.
    When I die I'm sure to go to heaven, cause I spent my time in hell.

    You get more with a kind word and a two by four, than you do with just a kind word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaffer View Post
    And the medhi army is part of what's being dismantled in the surge. sadr has lost a lot of power since he ran off to iraq. I'm sure he plans to return and stir things up as soon as we leave tho. The iraqi government needs to arrest his ass and execute him as quickly as posible if they want to survive. Otherwise he will become another saddam under iran's thumb.
    You have delusions of grandeur Gaffe. Unless we plan to kill 60% of Iraqis we will never destroy the Shia resistance.

    I thought our goal was to liberate them with democracy not assassinate their popular leaders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalNation View Post
    Have a referendum. All Iraqis can vote, if they vote us out, we leave and save face too.

    Liberal.....that makes too much sense!!!

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    Let's just screw the Iraqis. It doesnt matter if they are killed. all thats important is we get out... I love that attitude of you guys. I love your great compassion.

    Let's ignore all the global ramnifications of running out of Iraq. Let's ignore the wake of death and destruction that will follow. The destruction of world economies and any power we may have to stop terrorism. Let's just ignore the great loss of life that will ensure. After all they are just "raghead Iraqis" right? They don't deserve a chance to life their lives free. We should just step back and let the Iranians/Saudis/Turks play games with their little lives.

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