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    Default FBI fake terror entrapment? Job security maybe

    Fake terror plots, paid informants: the tactics of FBI 'entrapment' questioned

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...=FBCNETTXT9038

    Critics say bureau is running a sting operation across America, targeting vulnerable people by luring them into fake terror plots

    • Paul Harris in New York
    • guardian.co.uk, <time datetime="2011-11-16T12:33EST" pubdate="">Wednesday 16 November 2011 12.33 EST </time>
    • Article history
      The FBI has drawn criticism over its apparent use of 'entrapment' tactics. Photograph:


      David Williams did not have an easy life. He moved to Newburgh, a gritty, impoverished town on the banks of the Hudson an hour or so north of New York, at just 10 years old. For a young, black American boy with a father in jail, trouble was everywhere.
      Williams also made bad choices. He ended up going to jail for dealing drugs. When he came out in 2007 he tried to go straight, but money was tight and his brother, Lord, needed cash for a liver transplant. Life is hard in Newburgh if you are poor, have a drug rap and need cash quickly.
      His aunt, Alicia McWilliams, was honest about the tough streets her nephew was dealing with. "Newburgh is a hard place," she said. So it was perhaps no surprise that in May, 2009, David Williams was arrested again and hit with a 25-year jail sentence. But it was not for drugs offences. Or any other common crime. Instead Williams and three other struggling local men beset by drug, criminal and mental health issues were convicted of an Islamic terrorist plot to blow up Jewish synagogues and shoot down military jets with missiles.
      Even more shocking was that the organisation, money, weapons and motivation for this plot did not come from real Islamic terrorists. It came from the FBI, and an informant paid to pose as a terrorist mastermind paying big bucks for help in carrying out an attack. For McWilliams, her own government had actually cajoled and paid her beloved nephew into being a terrorist, created a fake plot and then jailed him for it. "I feel like I am in the Twilight Zone," she told the Guardian.
      Lawyers for the so-called Newburgh Four have now launched an appeal that will be held early next year. Advocates hope the case offers the best chance of exposing the issue of FBI "entrapment" in terror cases. "We have as close to a legal entrapment case as I have ever seen," said Susanne Brody, who represents another Newburgh defendant, Onta Williams.

      Some experts agree. "The target, the motive, the ideology and the plot were all led by the FBI," said Karen Greenberg, a law professor at Fordham University in New York, who specialises in studying the new FBI tactics....
    I remember the Florida 7 or something like that was the same thing, the FBI found these poor bedraggled guys in a warehouse and told them they would get funding to blow up the sears tower. they didn't even have bus ticket money to go Chicago, if they even knew it was in Chicago..


    1000 Alquida are not enough to keep the FBI busy folks they've got a lot of competition for terror funds CIA, NSA, TSA , and all the other Homeland secret police folks looking under rocks for terrorist.
    it's really kind pitiful
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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    Book
    The Terror Factory: Inside the FBI's Manufactured War on Terrorism

    A groundbreaking work of investigative journalism, The Terror Factory: Inside the FBI's Manufactured War on Terrorism exposes how the FBI has, under the guise of engaging in counterterrorism since 9/11, built a network of more than 15,000 informants whose primary purpose is to infiltrate Muslim communities to create and facilitate phony terrorist plots so that the Bureau can then claim it is winning the war on terror.

    An outgrowth of Trevor Aaronson's work as an investigative reporting fellow at the University of California, Berkeley, which culminated in an award-winning cover story in Mother Jones magazine, The Terror Factory reveals shocking information about the criminals, con men, and liars the FBI uses as paid informants--including the story of an accused murderer who has become one of the Bureau's most prolific terrorism snitches--as well as documenting the extreme methods the FBI uses to ensnare Muslims in terrorist plots, which are in reality conceived and financed by the FBI.

    The book also offers unprecedented detail into how the FBI has transformed from a reactive law enforcement agency to a proactive counterterrorism organization that traps hapless individuals in manufactured terrorist plots in order to justify the $3 billion it spends every year fighting terrorism.
    entrapment n. in criminal law, the act of law enforcement officers or government agents to induce or encourage a person to commit a crime when the potential criminal expresses a desire not to go ahead. The key to entrapment is whether the idea for the commission or encouragement of the criminal act originated with the police or government agents instead of with the "criminal." Entrapment, if proved, is a defense to a criminal prosecution. The accused often claims entrapment in so-called "stings" in which undercover agents buy or sell narcotics, prostitutes' services, or arrange to purchase goods believed to be stolen. The factual question is: Would Jahiel Begood have purchased the drugs if not pressed by the narc?

    James Cromitie was a man of bluster and bigotry. He made up wild stories about his supposed exploits, like the one about firing gas bombs into police precincts using a flare gun, and he ranted about Jews. "The worst brother in the whole Islamic world is better than 10 billion Yahudi," he once said.
    A 45-year-old Walmart stocker who'd adopted the name Abdul Rahman after converting to Islam during a prison stint for selling cocaine, Cromitie had lots of worries—convincing his wife he wasn't sleeping around, keeping up with the rent, finding a decent job despite his felony record. But he dreamed of making his mark. He confided as much in a middle-aged Pakistani he knew as Maqsood.
    "I'm gonna run into something real big," he'd say. "I just feel it, I'm telling you. I feel it."



    Maqsood and Cromitie had met at a mosque in Newburgh, a struggling former Air Force town about an hour north of New York City. They struck up a friendship, talking for hours about the world's problems and how the Jews were to blame.
    It was all talk until November 2008, when Maqsood pressed his new friend.
    "Do you think you are a better recruiter or a better action man?" Maqsood asked.
    "I'm both," Cromitie bragged.
    "My people would be very happy to know that, brother. Honestly."
    "Who's your people?" Cromitie asked.
    "Jaish-e-Mohammad."

    Maqsood said he was an agent for the Pakistani terror group, tasked with assembling a team to wage jihad in the United States. He asked Cromitie what he would attack if he had the means. A bridge, Cromitie said.
    "But bridges are too hard to be hit," Maqsood pleaded, "because they're made of steel."
    "Of course they're made of steel," Cromitie replied. "But the same way they can be put up, they can be brought down."
    Maqsood coaxed Cromitie toward a more realistic plan. The Mumbai attacks were all over the news, and he pointed out how those gunmen targeted hotels, cafés, and a Jewish community center.
    "With your intelligence, I know you can manipulate someone," Cromitie told his friend. "But not me, because I'm intelligent." The pair settled on a plot to bomb synagogues in the Bronx, and then fire Stinger missiles at airplanes taking off from Stewart International Airport in the southern Hudson Valley. Maqsood would provide all the explosives and weapons, even the vehicles. "We have two missiles, okay?" he offered. "Two Stingers, rocket missiles."
    Maqsood was an undercover operative; that much was true. But not for Jaish-e-Mohammad. His real name was Shahed Hussain, and he was a paid informant for the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
    Ever since 9/11, counterterrorism has been the FBI's No. 1 priority, consuming the lion's share of its budget—$3.3 billion, compared to $2.6 billion for organized crime—and much of the attention of field agents and a massive, nationwide network of informants. After years of emphasizing informant recruiting as a key task for its agents, the bureau now maintains a roster of 15,000 spies—many of them tasked, as Hussain was, with infiltrating Muslim communities in the United States. In addition, for every informant officially listed in the bureau's records, there are as many as three unofficial ones, according to one former high-level FBI official, known in bureau parlance as "hip pockets."

    The informants could be doctors, clerks, imams. Some might not even consider themselves informants. But the FBI regularly taps all of them as part of a domestic intelligence apparatus whose only historical peer might be COINTELPRO, the program the bureau ran from the '50s to the '70s to discredit and marginalize organizations ranging from the Ku Klux Klan to civil-rights and protest groups.
    Throughout the FBI’s history, informant numbers have been closely guarded secrets. Periodically, however, the bureau has released those figures. A Senate oversight committee in 1975 found the FBI had 1,500 informants. In 1980, officials disclosed there were 2,800. Six years later, following the FBI’s push into drugs and organized crime, the number of bureau informants ballooned to 6,000, the Los Angeles Times reported in 1986. And according to the FBI, the number grew significantly after 9/11. In its fiscal year 2008 budget authorization request, the FBI disclosed that it it had been been working under a November 2004 presidential directive demanding an increase in "human source development and management," and that it needed $12.7 million for a program to keep tabs on its spy network and create software to track and manage informants.
    The bureau's strategy has changed significantly from the days when officials feared another coordinated, internationally financed attack from an Al Qaeda sleeper cell. Today, counterterrorism experts believe groups like Al Qaeda, battered by the war in Afghanistan and the efforts of the global intelligence community, have shifted to a franchise model, using the internet to encourage sympathizers to carry out attacks in their name. The main domestic threat, as the FBI sees it, is a lone wolf.
    The bureau's answer has been a strategy known variously as "preemption," "prevention," and "disruption"—identifying and neutralizing potential lone wolves before they move toward action. To that end, FBI agents and informants target not just active jihadists, but tens of thousands of law-abiding people, seeking to identify those disgruntled few who might participate in a plot given the means and the opportunity. And then, in case after case, the government provides the plot, the means, and the opportunity.
    Here's how it works: Informants report to their handlers on people who have, say, made statements sympathizing with terrorists. Those names are then cross-referenced with existing intelligence data, such as immigration and criminal records. FBI agents may then assign an undercover operative to approach the target by posing as a radical. Sometimes the operative will propose a plot, provide explosives, even lead the target in a fake oath to Al Qaeda. Once enough incriminating information has been gathered, there's an arrest—and a press conference announcing another foiled plot.
    If this sounds vaguely familiar, it's because such sting operations are a fixture in the headlines. Remember the Washington Metro bombing plot? The New York subway plot? The guys who planned to blow up the Sears Tower? The teenager seeking to bomb a Portland Christmas tree lighting? Each of those plots, and dozens more across the nation, was led by an FBI asset.
    Over the past year, Mother Jones and the Investigative Reporting Program at the University of California-Berkeley have examined prosecutions of 508 defendants in terrorism-related cases, as defined by the Department of Justice. Our investigation found:

    • Nearly half the prosecutions involved the use of informants, many of them incentivized by money (operatives can be paid as much as $100,000 per assignment) or the need to work off criminal or immigration violations. (For more on the details of those 508 cases, see our charts page and searchable database.)
    • Sting operations resulted in prosecutions against 158 defendants. Of that total, 49 defendants participated in plots led by an agent provocateur—an FBI operative instigating terrorist action.
    • With three exceptions, all of the high-profile domestic terror plots of the last decade were actually FBI stings. (The exceptions are Najibullah Zazi, who came close to bombing the New York City subway system in September 2009; Hesham Mohamed Hadayet, an Egyptian who opened fire on the El-Al ticket counter at the Los Angeles airport; and failed Times Square bomber Faisal Shahzad.)
    • In many sting cases, key encounters between the informant and the target were not recorded—making it hard for defendants claiming entrapment to prove their case.
    • Terrorism-related charges are so difficult to beat in court, even when the evidence is thin, that defendants often don't risk a trial.

    Advertise on MotherJones.com


    "The problem with the cases we're talking about is that defendants would not have done anything if not kicked in the ass by government agents," says Martin Stolar, a lawyer who represented a man caught in a 2004 sting involving New York's Herald Square subway station. "They're creating crimes to solve crimes so they can claim a victory in the war on terror." In the FBI's defense, supporters argue that the bureau will only pursue a case when the target clearly is willing to participate in violent action. "If you're doing a sting right, you're offering the target multiple chances to back out," says Peter Ahearn, a retired FBI special agent who directed the Western New York Joint Terrorism Task Force and oversaw the investigation of the Lackawanna Six, an alleged terror cell near Buffalo, New York. "Real people don't say, 'Yeah, let's go bomb that place.' Real people call the cops."........

    Trevor Aaronson is author of The Terror Factory: Inside the FBI’s Manufactured War on Terrorism (Ig Publishing, January 2013). He is also co-director of the Florida Center for Investigative Reporting and a senior fellow at the Schuster Institute for Investigative Journalism at Brandeis University. Aaronson was a 2010-11 fellow at the Investigative Reporting Program at the University of California, Berkeley, where he produced an award-winning project about FBI counterterrorism operations for Mother Jones.
    Previously, Aaronson was an investigative reporter and editor for The Commercial Appeal in Memphis, where his stories ranged from local government investigations to reporting in Asia, Africa and South America. He was also formerly a staff writer for Miami New Times and New Times Broward-Palm Beach.
    A two-time finalist for the Livingston Awards for journalists under the age of 35, Aaronson has won more than two dozen national and regional awards, including the Molly Prize, the international Data Journalism Award and the John Jay College/Harry Frank Guggenheim Excellence in Criminal Justice Reporting Award.
    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...ist-informants
    http://www.expertwitnessradio.org/site/the-terror-factory/


    http://thefreedomreport.us/?p=3089

    <iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Woo8pQ1KzaI?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
    Last edited by revelarts; 02-14-2013 at 05:55 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Fake terror plots, paid informants: the tactics of FBI 'entrapment' questioned

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...=FBCNETTXT9038



    I remember the Florida 7 or something like that was the same thing, the FBI found these poor bedraggled guys in a warehouse and told them they would get funding to blow up the sears tower. they didn't even have bus ticket money to go Chicago, if they even knew it was in Chicago..


    1000 Alquida are not enough to keep the FBI busy folks they've got a lot of competition for terror funds CIA, NSA, TSA , and all the other Homeland secret police folks looking under rocks for terrorist.
    it's really kind pitiful

    Rev. Bet you are one of those people who is still convinced Building 7 was intentionally bombed on 9-11, and give credit to Bush for being the mastermind of those attacks.
    I love to make Liberals Cry, and Whine.
    So, this is for them.
    GOD BLESS AMERICA - IN GOD WE TRUST !

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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutime View Post
    Rev. Bet you are one of those people who...
    aboutime have you got anything to reply to the info in this thread
    or are just trying to make the thought of it go away by assuming the messenger has some problems?
    Last edited by revelarts; 02-14-2013 at 09:58 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    aboutime have you got anything to reply to the info in this thread
    or are just trying to make the thought of it go away by assuming the messenger has some problems?

    Rev. You bet I do. Stories like this are almost exactly what the Obama administration needs in their fight FROM WITHIN here in this nation. Bringing down the FBI, CIA, and our Military is all coming together at once.
    The more Obama and his hounds convince the People who have no Information that the FBI, CIA, and the Military are working against them. Them stronger Obama's plan for Socialist, and even Communist idea's take hold. Taking advantage of the Dependent people who wouldn't dare BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS THEM FOR FREE..by convincing them...Only government can take care of them.

    In short. This is all part of the plan to Bring DOWN this nation...slowly, and deliberately. And even you have fallen for it.
    I love to make Liberals Cry, and Whine.
    So, this is for them.
    GOD BLESS AMERICA - IN GOD WE TRUST !

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    I see, Revelarts, that you kicked all of this off with a Guardian article.

    As I've posted before, the Guardian is a Left-wing publication, which isn't above acting disreputably. They tried to swing one of your elections away from Bush by getting British readers to cold-call residents in the 'swing State' (we'd call it a 'marginal') of Clark County, to try and get key voters to vote in favour of the Democrats.

    So it's not surprising that they'd print the piece they have ... this intended for a British audience first and foremost, to help along their efforts to make Brits think and feel negatively towards the US, and just maybe try and make us think of our own standards as superior.

    Observe ...

    http://www.guardianlies.com/section%204/page17.html

    Key sectors of the British media, including elements within the BBC, are often accused of being anti-monarchist, anti-American, pro-New Labour, and pro-Federal Europe. There is an explanation. These are Guardian tenets, and for the majority of Britain's journalists, and for an overwhelming majority of BBC News & Current Affairs journalists, The Guardian is a liberal icon whose standing should not be challenged.

    The Guardian's indoctrination of Britain's media elite begins early, instilling in Britain's journalists an automaton-like loyalty akin to that shown by orphan chicks raised by humans. Ornithologists call it "imprinting". The resultant inability of the British media to challenge The Guardian's line is certainly the one logical explanation for its uncritical acceptance of The Guardian's 1994 'cash for questions' campaign, and its subsequent reluctance to air news about Hunt & Keith-Hill's investigation proving that Guardian journalists lied and submitted false documents to Sir Gordon Downey's 1997 Inquiry (see Section Three of this website).
    And check this out ...

    http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/...antiameri.html

    We've seen it on display several times, the Guardian Unlimited's rank anti-American bias is so pronounced in this piece on the housing crisis, it defies belief.

    First, the headline:

    Tent City in Suburbs is cost of home crisis

    The first three paragraphs of the story make it seem as if suburbia in America is shortly going to resemble African refugee camps ...

    http://www.robertandrews.co.uk/2004/...-clark-county/

    Guardian Unlimited has been forced to halt Operation Clark County, its programme enlisting UK web users to write to electors in the key Ohio district persuading them to vote for their preferred candidate, after what it says was a spam attack from angry right-wing opponents.

    The newspaper launched the effort in mid-October as a means for global citizens to influence the November "global election" for the position of leader of the free world. It paid $25 for the local electoral register, passing on names and addresses of voters to participants around the world. For a letter I found personally interesting, check out this eloquent one from a gentleman down the road in Newport.

    Despite signing up 14,000 activists by its closure this weekend, the programme immediately met resistance from critics angered at what they saw to be foreign meddling in a domestic election.

    CNN said the operation had “sparked outraged”. The majority of Ohioans’ responses, indeed, told the paper, and Britons, to keep their noses out of US business.

    If you insist upon posting threads such as this, do you think you could keep trashy Leftie propaganda rags out of consideration ?

    Just a thought ....
    Last edited by Drummond; 02-14-2013 at 10:38 PM.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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    Drummond If you tell the truth i'll even quote you.

    I am well aware of the guardians bias and yours and fox news and the NYTimes and Msnbc and Hannity and Linbaugh and Maddow etc etc.

    I guess the difference between us is you just assume the left is ALWAYS wrong, and don't even consider they may have a 1/2 a fact you should even consider. You seem to assume that everything is pure undistiled left propaganda.

    But i tend look to see if there are facts in what just about anyone says. And frankly it's rare that news media or the goverment or you or me lie ALL the time. I think all the MSM is like old pravda. but even Pravda had some facts in it.

    So i see again in this thread you Dimiss out of hand what you don't agree without with considering the content or the original source. which are the court records and testimony of the FBI agents and informants and "terrorist".

    the last item i posted was a link to a radio interview with a Former DEA and FBI agent who worked undercover for 25 years. He says while he was an officer his politics "was too the right of Atilla the Hun". he not only acknowledges the info revealed in the story in the guardian, and the OTHER SOURCES i quote he's says that it's been appeared to him for years that from the news reports that the US terrorism arrest cases have been Entrapment just about every time a report made.

    And what got me thinking in this vain on this was not the guradian btw, it was a case YEARS ago called the miami 7,
    i just happened to see several of the news reports on this and thught to myself "is this the best they've got., is this the terror threat we should be in mortal fear of?" it was laughable and sad.

    the Gov't in the form of Roberto Gonzlaz made statements to the effect that the FBI had stoped a terror plot to blow up the Sears tower in Chicago by alqueda afiliates in Miami.
    Ok sounds good right.
    until you here the rest of the story.

    these 7 jobless nigh on homeless guys where hangin out in in a werehouse and had form a weird religious group, with a mix of christian and muslim ideas. And Fbi "agent" approached them got in their click with gifts and convinced them that'd he had Alqueda connectings could get them money and weapons, he gave them a plan, They wanted the money and thought they could do a deed with alqeada so they took the faux weapons and were busted.

    the plan was to blow up the sears towers, they didn't even have bus money to get to Chicago. all there operations money came from the FBI. One of the "terrorist" was said to have real mental issues. and there was a real question if some of these guys even knew what the sears towers was.

    It was laughable that our gov't, at the highest level, consider those poor souls a threat to anything but themselves.

    I'm sure you'll disagree and say i'm a horrible liberal for using my own judgment and not trusting GWBUSH and the FBI, (they knew secret stuff about them or sumthin)
    but what i saw from the gov't and from the mouths of the "terrorist" in early interviews was pathetic. Since then I've been keen to see the "terrorist" and the reports of capture and almost invariable, the FBI has provided the materials, often makes the plan and the 'terrorist' is some poor beleaguered misguided soul that seems like he couldn't drive himself across the country alone.



    But Drummond you should try to examine content, what's the original source.
    Sure everyone is Bias some MORE than others, and ..ahh welll
    never mind, it seems you've got the motto.

    If the new facts don't fit it's just not legit.


    it's from a leftwing, so its wrong (i don't even have to read it)
    it's wrong (not what i believe) , therefore it's leftwing
    you've got a locked coming and going.
    Last edited by revelarts; 02-15-2013 at 01:30 AM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Someone is *REALLY* worried about not being able to replenish his stash of chronic.
    Mama Jeffro: Jeeeeh-froooo! What's going on down there? What's that smell?
    Jeffro: Nothing ma! Me and Lorenzo are practicing our Turkish oil wrestling.

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    <iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/VswdzWA6T-s?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    highlights a small portion of the info mentioned by the FBI agent and reporters.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Drummond If you tell the truth i'll even quote you.

    I am well aware of the guardians bias and yours and fox news and the NYTimes and Msnbc and Hannity and Linbaugh and Maddow etc etc.

    I guess the difference between us is you just assume the left is ALWAYS wrong, and don't even consider they may have a 1/2 a fact you should even consider. You seem to assume that everything is pure undistiled left propaganda.

    But i tend look to see if there are facts in what just about anyone says. And frankly it's rare that news media or the goverment or you or me lie ALL the time. I think all the MSM is like old pravda. but even Pravda had some facts in it.

    So i see again in this thread you Dimiss out of hand what you don't agree without with considering the content or the original source. which are the court records and testimony of the FBI agents and informants and "terrorist".

    the last item i posted was a link to a radio interview with a Former DEA and FBI agent who worked undercover for 25 years. He says while he was an officer his politics "was too the right of Atilla the Hun". he not only acknowledges the info revealed in the story in the guardian, and the OTHER SOURCES i quote he's says that it's been appeared to him for years that from the news reports that the US terrorism arrest cases have been Entrapment just about every time a report made.

    And what got me thinking in this vain on this was not the guradian btw, it was a case YEARS ago called the miami 7,
    i just happened to see several of the news reports on this and thught to myself "is this the best they've got., is this the terror threat we should be in mortal fear of?" it was laughable and sad.

    the Gov't in the form of Roberto Gonzlaz made statements to the effect that the FBI had stoped a terror plot to blow up the Sears tower in Chicago by alqueda afiliates in Miami.
    Ok sounds good right.
    until you here the rest of the story.

    these 7 jobless nigh on homeless guys where hangin out in in a werehouse and had form a weird religious group, with a mix of christian and muslim ideas. And Fbi "agent" approached them got in their click with gifts and convinced them that'd he had Alqueda connectings could get them money and weapons, he gave them a plan, They wanted the money and thought they could do a deed with alqeada so they took the faux weapons and were busted.

    the plan was to blow up the sears towers, they didn't even have bus money to get to Chicago. all there operations money came from the FBI. One of the "terrorist" was said to have real mental issues. and there was a real question if some of these guys even knew what the sears towers was.

    It was laughable that our gov't, at the highest level, consider those poor souls a threat to anything but themselves.

    I'm sure you'll disagree and say i'm a horrible liberal for using my own judgment and not trusting GWBUSH and the FBI, (they knew secret stuff about them or sumthin)
    but what i saw from the gov't and from the mouths of the "terrorist" in early interviews was pathetic. Since then I've been keen to see the "terrorist" and the reports of capture and almost invariable, the FBI has provided the materials, often makes the plan and the 'terrorist' is some poor beleaguered misguided soul that seems like he couldn't drive himself across the country alone.



    But Drummond you should try to examine content, what's the original source.
    Sure everyone is Bias some MORE than others, and ..ahh welll
    never mind, it seems you've got the motto.

    If the new facts don't fit it's just not legit.


    it's from a leftwing, so its wrong (i don't even have to read it)
    it's wrong (not what i believe) , therefore it's leftwing
    you've got a locked coming and going.
    Revelarts, really .. seriously, now .. are you going to tell me that you aren't loyal to your own biases ? Can you tell me that your thinking, overall, doesn't compare with that of a Left-winger, and that you make arguments designed to promote that brand of thinking ?

    Do you know what I have against Left-wing arguments ? That they ARE propagandist, sure. But theirs is propaganda that's meant to skew thinking in their direction, based upon WHATEVER IT WILL TAKE to achieve that end.

    The Left has agendas. It has goals, and these are pursued with the aim in mind of achieving control over thoughts, actions, people, autonomies. The Left is interested in seeing what it wants to see, creating what it wants to create .. BUT, by basing all of that upon wish-fulfillment.

    WHOSE wish ? Answer .... THOSE WISHING FOR CONTROL OVER OTHERS.

    Revelarts, Right wing arguments, goals, may have their element of 'propaganda', but its very nature is the polar opposite of what I've just described. Right wing thoughts and deeds are grounded in realism, in total respect for the individual, and in freedom. We don't aim for control-freaking 'paradises', such as those TYRANNIES meted out by the likes of Stalin, Castro, Chairman Mao. We don't have the arrogance of trying to shape human nature, as the repressions of Communism tried AND FAILED to do.

    All of that said, and with particular consideration for the control-freakery aspect of Leftieism, THIS is why it's automatically important to consider the sources of material. Left-wing media publications have agendas. Even IF they print 'truths', to what extent are these 'spun' in order to achieve a preferred outlook ? And to what extent do they even remain fully true ?

    I'd much rather not have to apply an anti 'BS' filter to all I read or watch ... or wonder what facts I'm missing, through propagandist design ... facts I NEED in order to be fair in what I conclude.

    I submit to you that there is far more basic reason to distrust anything emanating from Left wing sources than Right wing sources. And I suggest to you that those who don't see this, or who refuse to see this, are those to whom the Left-wing propaganda machine has scored a resounding propaganda victory.
    It's That Bloody Foreigner Again !!!

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    You know, the last time I was in Germany and saw a man standing above everybody else, we ended up disagreeing.

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    AH , here's the problem Drummond, it's what you call a "brand of thinking".

    You try to peg every comment to a "brand of thinking", rather than trying to appraise honestly whether a statement or account is just a fact of reality.

    you might want to try and look a facts 1st then make your thinking around the facts rather than brands.
    Last edited by revelarts; 02-20-2013 at 04:05 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    AH , here's the problem Drummond, it's what you call a "brand of thinking".

    You try to peg every comment to a "brand of thinking", rather than trying to appraise honestly whether a statement or account is just a fact of reality.

    you might want to try and look a facts 1st then make your thinking around the facts rather than brands.
    Rev, not everything in life is a conspiracy, no matter how much you want them to be...

    There's a Black Helicopter that's been following you Rev... We are watching you.
    You know, the last time I was in Germany and saw a man standing above everybody else, we ended up disagreeing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voted4Reagan View Post
    Rev, not everything in life is a conspiracy, no matter how much you want them to be...

    There's a Black Helicopter that's been following you Rev... We are watching you.
    "conspiracy" another Brand of thinking people like to assume for others.

    How about reviewing the above facts and commenting on those V4R?
    I don't mention conspiracy here, To me it looks like piss poor police work and entrapment used to create the image of hard work "protecting the country".
    Around the office and factory floor it's called -look busy the boss is watching-,
    Maybe where you work you call it conspiracy.
    The real difference from my office to the FBI is, when the FBI does busy work people go to jail over stuff they probably never did.
    Last edited by revelarts; 02-20-2013 at 04:44 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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