Tasers, Dogs, and Lies to Park Rangers

[pegwinn]

Ok, the dude was walking the dog sans leash. The Park Ranger confronts him and he apparently lied when the Ranger asked his name. Then he tried to leave. Result: Taser and USA Today.

Here is an excerpt from the middle of the story. Click here to read the whole thing.

Rosenberg said the chief ranger for the recreational area replied with some details of the incident. In the response, which she shared with The Associated Press, Kevin Cochary said Hesterberg was "not compliant, tried to run away and lied to the investigating ranger about his name."

Question: Am I the only person who normally backs up the cops to think that this sounds off? I mean, giving a fake name and walking off is a taser offense? There has to be something I am missing. Help me out, please.

[ConHog]

Ok, the dude was walking the dog sans leash. The Park Ranger confronts him and he apparently lied when the Ranger asked his name. Then he tried to leave. Result: Taser and USA Today.

Here is an excerpt from the middle of the story. Click here to read the whole thing.



Question: Am I the only person who normally backs up the cops to think that this sounds off? I mean, giving a fake name and walking off is a taser offense? There has to be something I am missing. Help me out, please.

This seems like a clear detention to me. The guy was clearly in violation of a law (walking the dog without a leash) and so when approached by police in CA he was required to stop and identify himself.

[pegwinn]

Was he truly in violation of the law? Criminal law? As in Miranda Rights and potentially facing jail?

I only ask because the story (link in OP) said:

in violation of the rules of Rancho Corral de Tierra, which was incorporated into the Golden Gate National Recreation Area in December.

Cops are unsung heroes for the most part. But, I truly think they should (like the military) be held to a higher standard. Is a Park Ranger a cop? I only ask because I have never dealt with one on a level above asking for directions to the camp ground, swimming hole, or fishing pier.

I guess I just can't see this as a weapons worthy incident.

Enlighten me.

[logroller]

Was he truly in violation of the law? Criminal law? As in Miranda Rights and potentially facing jail?


I guess I just can't see this as a weapons worthy incident.

Enlighten me.

From the OP-

The ranger deployed the Taser stun gun on Gary Hesterberg on Sunday after he ignored the ranger's orders and tried to walk away..

"Any law enforcement officer has a variety of means by which to insure compliance in a law enforcement situation, so the standard is they exercise reasonable judgment to ensure compliance in any situation they find themselves in," Levitt said...

Hesterberg was arrested on suspicion of failing to obey a lawful order, having dogs off-leash and knowingly providing false information, Levitt said.

He'll pay some fines most likely, but he broke the law.

As to the use of weapons, I would think the SOP would be to manually subdue him, suggesting a taser was excessive force. However, he had a dog which poses a risk to others (hence the leash law), thus it could reasonably be assumed it could attack the officer when he/she tried to subdue the dog's owner.

Although, the reported intent of the leash law---

Park service officials and environmentalists said they want to protect some 1,200 native plant and animal species, including the Snowy Plover, a federally endangered shorebird

:lame:

[darin]

Ranger should be disciplined, based on what I'm reading. If the ranger wished to cite the man, she should have said "wait here, I am detaining you while I prepare the violation".

If the man had no legal or proper notification of detainment he was free to go.

[revelarts]

I know what folks might expect me to say but urr this one looks like a boarderline case. the kind of case that makes it hard to have a rule either way.

My problem here isn't so much the Ranger. It's the Rangers attitude (and folks here) attitude toward "THE LAW".
there's a thing called the letter of the the law then there's the spirit of the law. Some cops seem to only to be able to understand the letter and their assumed authority over unruly low life "civilians".

the man had dogs not on a leash. Ok the spirit of the law is the safety of oethrs in the park. The guy should have been stopped. even good dogs snap. If Both the Dog owner and the ranger were acting like adults he probably could have been escorted without fine back to his vehicle dogs and all and no one would have known anything about this incident.

I've been stopped on park property for "fishing without a licence" the ranger just asked me to pack my pole and get a license. I wasn't happy but he didn't ticket, cuff or taze me or ask me to ID myself. I packed up my pole and left.
Spirit of the law obeyed. no fishing without a license.
(still don't know why you need a stinking license to fish in a park that's maintained by city tax dollars already ..but i digress)


But here's a list of COPS and Schools gone wild that show a bit of a pattern of schools and police thinking of the letter of the law and beyond it to some kind of quasi-prison mindset. some of this stuff is hard to believe. we report you decide.

...But what is going on in many areas of the country is absolutely ridiculous. For example, in 2010 alone police down in Texas issued an astounding 300,000tickets to school children.
Yes, if a kid pulls a knife on someone the police should get involved, but teachers and administrators should be able to use some common sense and handle the vast majority of discipline problems that happen themselves.
What you are about to read is absolutely going to amaze you. The following are 19 really crazy things that school children are being arrested for in America….
#1 At one public school down in Texas, a 12-year-old girl named Sarah Bustamantes was recently arrested for spraying herself with perfume.
#2 A 13-year-old student at a school in Albuquerque, New Mexico was recently arrested by police for burping in class.
#3 Another student down in Albuquerque was forced to strip down to his underwear while five adults watched because he had $200 in his pocket. The student was never formally charged with doing anything wrong.
#4 A security guard at one school in California broke the arm of a 16-year-old girl because after cleaning up some cake that she had spilled.
#5 One teenage couple down in Houston poured milk on each other during a squabble while they were breaking up. Instead of being sent to see the principal,they were arrested and sent to court.
#6 In early 2010, a 12-year-old girl at a school in Forest Hills, New York was arrested by police and marched out of her school in handcuffs just because she doodled on her desk. “I love my friends Abby and Faith” was what she reportedly scribbled on her desk.
#7 A 6-year-old girl down in Florida was handcuffed and sent to a mental facility after throwing temper tantrums at her elementary school.
#8 One student down in Texas was reportedly arrested by police for throwing paper airplanes in class.
#9 A 17-year-old honor student in North Carolina named Ashley Smithwick accidentally took her father’s lunch with her to school. It contained a small paring knife which he would use to slice up apples. So what happened to this standout student when the school discovered this? The school suspended her for the rest of the year and the police charged her with a misdemeanor.
#10 In Allentown, Pennsylvania a 14-year-old girl by a school security officer even though she had put up her hands in the air to surrender.
#11 Down in Florida, an 11-year-old student was arrested, thrown in jail and charged with a third-degree felony for bringing a plastic butter knife to school.
#12 Back in 2009, an 8-year-old boy in Massachusetts was sent home from school and was forced to undergo a psychological evaluation because he drew a picture of Jesus on the cross.
#13 A police officer in San Mateo, California blasted a 7-year-old special education student in the face with pepper spray because he would not quit climbing on the furniture.
#14 In America today, even 5-year-old children are treated brutally by police. The following is from a recent article that described what happened to one very young student in Stockton, California a while back….

Earlier this year, a Stockton student was handcuffed with zip ties on his hands and feet, forced to go to the hospital for a psychiatric evaluation and was charged with battery on a police officer. That student was 5 years old.

#15 At one school in Connecticut, a 17-year-old boy was thrown to the floor andtasered five times because he was yelling at a cafeteria worker.
#16 A teenager in suburban Dallas was forced to take on a part-time jobafter being ticketed for using foul language in one high school classroom. The original ticket was for $340, but additional fees have raised the total bill to $637.
#17 A few months ago, police were called out when a little girl kissed a little boy during a physical education class at an elementary school down in Florida.
#18 A 6-year-old boy was recently charged with sexual battery for some “inappropriate touching” during a game of tag at one elementary school in the San Francisco area.
#19 In Massachusetts, police were recently sent out to collect an overdue library book from a 5-year-old girl.
Unfortunately, what is going on in our schools is a reflection of the broader society as a whole. Our schools are being turned into prisons because our entire society is being turned into a giant prison....

[fj1200]

But here's a list of COPS and Schools gone wild that show a bit of a pattern of schools and police thinking of the letter of the law and beyond it to some kind of quasi-prison mindset. some of this stuff is hard to believe. we report you decide.

Examples are not a pattern, they are examples, a pattern has a higher level of proof. I think I just found the root of all my disagreements with you.

[logroller]

Ranger should be disciplined, based on what I'm reading. If the ranger wished to cite the man, she should have said "wait here, I am detaining you while I prepare the violation".

If the man had no legal or proper notification of detainment he was free to go.

"Stop"/ "Stay" would be proper, no?

Hesterberg allegedly refused to provide the ranger with printed identification, and she realized he had told her a false name when she called dispatchers to verify, Levitt said. While she was on the telephone, "the man failed to heed repeated orders to remain at the scene" and the ranger used her Taser, he said...
A witness, Michelle Babcock, told the San Francisco Chronicle (http://bit.ly/y9rHph) the ranger never gave Hesterberg an explanation as to why he was being detained and then hit him with the stun gun in the back.
"He just tried to walk away," Babcock said. "She never gave him a reason. … It didn't make any sense."

SO, according to a witness he was informed of detainment, just not given a reason as to why he was... but I'm not aware officers need to inform you as to why you're being arrested, let alone detained; though they usually do, its not legally required, even if you ask-- in the course of an investigation they can detain for up to 72 hours w/o giving any reason whatsoever-- so long as they have a reasonable suspicion to do so. Rather she had reasonable suspicion to detain him is a valid question.

Despite the public outrage, many people just don't know their rights. I know, been there done that-- what you have is the right to remain silent, EXCEPT for providing your name-- which he did but, when she called into dispatch with the name he'd given, it came back as false-- providing reasonable suspicion for further detainment. When asked for printed ID, he refused and tried to walk away-- she ordered him to stop, he continued to walk away. Bottom line, in providing a false name he sought to mislead a rather benign investigation and refused to comply to verbal orders from a LE officer. Which leads me to ask, what would be some plausible reasons for a person providing a false name?

[CSM]

The ranger should have shot both the man and the dog dead ... that would teach em a lesson and be a lesson to others that the LAW is inviolate! Heck, if you don't nip these things in the bud who knows how far it would go? Next thing ya know, there wouldn't be any flowers at all!

[darin]

"Stop"/ "Stay" would be proper, no?



SO, according to a witness he was informed of detainment, just not given a reason as to why he was... but I'm not aware officers need to inform you as to why you're being arrested, let alone detained; though they usually do, its not legally required, even if you ask-- in the course of an investigation they can detain for up to 72 hours w/o giving any reason whatsoever-- so long as they have a reasonable suspicion to do so. Rather she had reasonable suspicion to detain him is a valid question.

Despite the public outrage, many people just don't know their rights. I know, been there done that-- what you have is the right to remain silent, EXCEPT for providing your name-- which he did but, when she called into dispatch with the name he'd given, it came back as false-- providing reasonable suspicion for further detainment. When asked for printed ID, he refused and tried to walk away-- she ordered him to stop, he continued to walk away. Bottom line, in providing a false name he sought to mislead a rather benign investigation and refused to comply to verbal orders from a LE officer. Which leads me to ask, what would be some plausible reasons for a person providing a false name?

What does 'remain at the scene' mean? Mean he cannot move? He must stand somewhere?

The whole 'stop and cite' scenario for this points to a cop doing something stupid; wasting time. Warn the guy, then move on to crime.

[logroller]

What does 'remain at the scene' mean? Mean he cannot move? He must stand somewhere?

The whole 'stop and cite' scenario for this points to a cop doing something stupid; wasting time. Warn the guy, then move on to crime.

From merriam Webster online

remain: 2) to stay in the same place or with the same person or group

scene: 4) the place of an occurrence or action: locale

Let's say I disagree with jaywalking laws-- should I tell the cop to fuck off and walk away? Cause that's actually less severe than giving a false name. Or rather, should I give him my ID and STFU?

This guy escalated the situation beyond a standard 'stop and warn/cite' situation. I'm all for liberty, but lying to cop is far from a reasonable expression of liberty. Disagree with the law all you want, go to court and plead your case-- that's the process. According to my attorney, in dealing with LE the goal in any stop is to leave freely; not surprisingly, providing false information doesn't fulfill that goal.

Now I've done my best to answer those questions posed here, but I don't disagree that something doesn't add up-- specifically, why did this guy provide a false name? Please enlighten me as to how you reason that behavior.

[Abbey Marie]

Examples are not a pattern, they are examples, a pattern has a higher level of proof. I think I just found the root of all my disagreements with you.

While I agree not a pattern, depending on the chronology of the events, they could constitute a trend.

[cadet]

Ok, the dude was walking the dog sans leash. The Park Ranger confronts him and he apparently lied when the Ranger asked his name. Then he tried to leave. Result: Taser and USA Today.

Here is an excerpt from the middle of the story. Click here to read the whole thing.



Question: Am I the only person who normally backs up the cops to think that this sounds off? I mean, giving a fake name and walking off is a taser offense? There has to be something I am missing. Help me out, please.

so, in a nut shell, and in layman's terms...
man walks good dog that he trusts, must be some hell'uv'a dog.
ranger walks up and says WTF!!!
man walks away, and lies cause he doesn't want to get in trouble.
and the ranger tased him, (must have been a great wuss of a dog not to attack the ranger cause of that.)

and it ends up a big story.

[pegwinn]

I'm all for cops in most cases. But, they should be held to a higher standard than simple civilians. Having said that....

Is a Park Ranger a cop? Humor me because I am a layman when it comes to civil law enforcement. I mean, the Sheriff, the City Cops, JP, Constable, and Meter Maids (the pc term is parking enforcement) are all duly authorized "Officers of the Law". I've simply never heard of a Park Ranger in Jellystone National Park being authorized to do anything but kick you out of the park and then call the sheriff. Oh, and in Texas a Game Warden is duly authorized as well, with almost Texas Ranger - like authority.

When is it illegal to lie to a cop? If I am not under arrest I can call myself Yogi Bear and if he doesn't have Probable Cause...... I get that once you are under arrest/apprehension that perjury most likely applies if you choose to speak.

Last Question: Is violation of Park Regulations an actual violation of criminal law? If it is administrative law that applies, then I'd say the Taser was a bit extreme.

[ConHog]

I'm all for cops in most cases. But, they should be held to a higher standard than simple civilians. Having said that....

Is a Park Ranger a cop? Humor me because I am a layman when it comes to civil law enforcement. I mean, the Sheriff, the City Cops, JP, Constable, and Meter Maids (the pc term is parking enforcement) are all duly authorized "Officers of the Law". I've simply never heard of a Park Ranger in Jellystone National Park being authorized to do anything but kick you out of the park and then call the sheriff. Oh, and in Texas a Game Warden is duly authorized as well, with almost Texas Ranger - like authority.

When is it illegal to lie to a cop? If I am not under arrest I can call myself Yogi Bear and if he doesn't have Probable Cause...... I get that once you are under arrest/apprehension that perjury most likely applies if you choose to speak.

Last Question: Is violation of Park Regulations an actual violation of criminal law? If it is administrative law that applies, then I'd say the Taser was a bit extreme.

Short answer. Yes a park danger is law enforcement.

Also. It is not illegal to falsely identify yourself to police. You're quite correct about that. It is however stupid because all you're going to do is piss them off when they realize you've lied.

Also LE can detain you without charges for 72 hours and they do t have to tell you why. Walking away from w park ranger who is has detained you for violation of a leash law is equivelant to driving away from a states trooper who has pulled you over for speeding.