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  1. #1
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    Default Why are fruit and veg not so cheap compared to meats?

    It has to be said if there's one thing 'against' the vegan lifestyle its cheap mass-produced flesh. You can feed a family with a bucket from KFC (and while not advised) its certainly a common occournce, and one thats much cheaper than buying and making your own meat free meals.

    Though i personally think most meats at markets (red meat especially) and dairy (cheese and eggs especially) are remarkably expensive for what you get.

    But when you look at it, even in passing, something seems wrong, how can meats be competing (and in cases undercutting) costs of fruit and veg? Meats have a lot more work involved, more land needed, more time taken, more water and feed needed, more transport costs, less of a shelf life and so on, the answer is...the government, or rather the tax-payer, or rather, your money.

    The Dairy and Meat industries get *huge* subsities from the State to keep them competitive, and the numbers are huge, billions of dollars every year to make sure the meat and dairy industries can survive.

    But surly other food industries get this too? Well yes, to a lesser extent, behind the meat and dairy industry come the grains, they get a considerable second slice of the pie, though of course many of those grains will be turned onto feed for the animals in the meat and dairy industry...and what of Fruit and Veg? Combined they get less that one percent of the pie.

    Grapical representation of the subsidy pie, last year.



    Now, lets image for a minute that the government didn't spend your money supporting an industry that can't support itself. Or even, if it just cut say 10% from the meat and dairys and put that into fruit and veg...the world of a difference, no?
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    For years now, people have been worried about the unintended consequences of huge government subsidies for those who grow various grains, corn etc. for conversion to ethanol as fuel. A significant fraction of the nation's crops have been diverted to this, and away from the food market.

    As a result, the supply of these crops for food has fallen markedly, while the demand hasn't gone down at all. If anything, demand has increased.

    Supply and Demand is one of the most fundamental forces in any market, despite what our big-government advocates think of their supposed ability to avoid its effects. When you see food prices going up - whether the price of grain, or the price of beef from cattle fed by those grains - you won't go far wrong if you assume government is at the root of it.
    "The social contract exists so that everyone doesn’t have to squat in the dust holding a spear to protect his woman and his meat all day every day. It does not exist so that the government can take your spear, your meat, and your woman because it knows better what to do with them." - Instapundit.com

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    The problem is a human behavior problem. For the same reason people will spend $40,000 on a car that gets 20mpg MORE than their current car, they will buy tax-supported meat products.

    Take money from people's pay, BEFORE they get paid, use that money to pay for part of their food, and the people will think they are ONLY paying what they are charged at the grocery.

    The car example: one can buy a LOT of gas for 40,000. But, people will DO that because they feel less immediate pain at the point of purchase.


    Want to fix our gross gov't spending? Remove automatic deductions from payrolls. As-is, our pay is our "NET" - few people consider their 'gross pay' the money they ACTUALLY earned. Make people actually write a check out of their gross pay for all our programs. Then we'll feel the pain and complain.
    “… the greatest detractor from high performance is fear: fear that you are not prepared, fear that you are in over your head, fear that you are not worthy, and ultimately, fear of failure. If you can eliminate that fear—not through arrogance or just wishing difficulties away, but through hard work and preparation—you will put yourself in an incredibly powerful position to take on the challenges you face" - Pete Carroll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmp View Post
    Make people actually write a check out of their gross pay for all our programs. Then we'll feel the pain and complain.
    Especially if the check is due the day before Election Day.

    As you say, we should be required to write that check out of our gross pay, every time we get a paycheck. But those amounts will be estimates, just as the withholding amounts are today. Nowadays we must calculate the total amount and send in a check for the balance due, on April 15. With the method you propose (writing a check out of each gross paycheck), that balance-due date should be changed to the day before Election Day, each year.

    This will help politicians get serious about genuine spending cuts (not the "reductions in the rate of increase" they keep faking us out with today).
    "The social contract exists so that everyone doesn’t have to squat in the dust holding a spear to protect his woman and his meat all day every day. It does not exist so that the government can take your spear, your meat, and your woman because it knows better what to do with them." - Instapundit.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    It has to be said if there's one thing 'against' the vegan lifestyle its cheap mass-produced flesh. You can feed a family with a bucket from KFC (and while not advised) its certainly a common occournce, and one thats much cheaper than buying and making your own meat free meals.

    Though i personally think most meats at markets (red meat especially) and dairy (cheese and eggs especially) are remarkably expensive for what you get.

    But when you look at it, even in passing, something seems wrong, how can meats be competing (and in cases undercutting) costs of fruit and veg? Meats have a lot more work involved, more land needed, more time taken, more water and feed needed, more transport costs, less of a shelf life and so on, the answer is...the government, or rather the tax-payer, or rather, your money.

    The Dairy and Meat industries get *huge* subsities from the State to keep them competitive, and the numbers are huge, billions of dollars every year to make sure the meat and dairy industries can survive.

    But surly other food industries get this too? Well yes, to a lesser extent, behind the meat and dairy industry come the grains, they get a considerable second slice of the pie, though of course many of those grains will be turned onto feed for the animals in the meat and dairy industry...and what of Fruit and Veg? Combined they get less that one percent of the pie.

    Grapical representation of the subsidy pie, last year.



    Now, lets image for a minute that the government didn't spend your money supporting an industry that can't support itself. Or even, if it just cut say 10% from the meat and dairys and put that into fruit and veg...the world of a difference, no?

    Is there a source for that graph?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MtnBiker View Post
    Is there a source for that graph?
    I got it from the PCRM.

    http://www.pcrm.org/search/?cid=2586...ugUv4.facebook
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post

    Honestly, that is rather vague information. The pcrm does not source it's own graph, there is no telling how they came up with their graph to promote their agenda.

    Also a subsidy does not always equate to the government "spending" money. A so called subsidy can also be depreciation on capital. Something that is available to most businesses in the tax code.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MtnBiker View Post
    Honestly, that is rather vague information. The pcrm does not source it's own graph, there is no telling how they came up with their graph to promote their agenda.

    Also a subsidy does not always equate to the government "spending" money. A so called subsidy can also be depreciation on capital. Something that is available to most businesses in the tax code.
    Top hit on google with the words 'USA subsidise meat dairy'

    Quote Originally Posted by The Washinton Post
    Of the roughly $200 billion spent to subsidize U.S. commodity crops from 1995 to 2010 (commodity crops are interchangeable, storable foods such as grains and certain beans, and cotton), roughly two-thirds went to animal-feed crops, tobacco and cotton. Roughly $50 billion went to human-food crops, including wheat, peanuts, rice, oil seeds and other crops that become sweeteners, according to a database compiled by the Environmental Working Group, an advocacy group. About $12 billion went to crops that were turned into ethanol, a use that is consuming a growing share of the harvest.
    Farmers who grow fruits, vegetables and tree nuts, on the other hand, receive no regular direct subsidies, though there are some small programs that aid apple farmers and other growers. The government sometimes buys excess canned produce and uses it in school lunch programs and emergency food banks.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...5IL_story.html
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

  9. #9
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    Ok, so one article mentions cotton and tobacco as part of 2/3rds (no precentage of the 2/3rds) of subsudies. And one graph has no mention of cotton or tobacco in subsudies, even though is part of 2/3rds, hmmmm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MtnBiker View Post
    Ok, so one article mentions cotton and tobacco as part of 2/3rds (no precentage of the 2/3rds) of subsudies. And one graph has no mention of cotton or tobacco in subsudies, even though is part of 2/3rds, hmmmm.
    Well, here's a thought, email your representative and as them, that's what they're there for, no?
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    this thread puzzles me......beef is sold in our local grocery store for almost $8 a pound....what fruits and vegetables in your grocery store sell for more than meat?....shucks, I gotten grapes from Chili flown in by air and sold in our grocery for 99 cents a pound.....
    ...full immersion.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostmodernProphet View Post
    this thread puzzles me......beef is sold in our local grocery store for almost $8 a pound....what fruits and vegetables in your grocery store sell for more than meat?....shucks, I gotten grapes from Chili flown in by air and sold in our grocery for 99 cents a pound.....
    Well i'll just let you puzzle over it then.
    If you also agree that an animals suffering should be avoided rather than encouraged, consider what steps you can take.

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    I hate to criticize your source, Noir, but it seems to me that subsidies for meat (which to be honest, I couldn't even find) did not make it into the top 8 in 2005

    ...full immersion.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    Well i'll just let you puzzle over it then.
    I think I'll just call it a thread fail then.....bogus data results in bogus conclusions....

    you start a thread complaining that fruit and vegetables are more expensive than meat (when it isn't) and you blame "meat" subsidies which don't even exist.....
    ...full immersion.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noir View Post
    It has to be said if there's one thing 'against' the vegan lifestyle its cheap mass-produced flesh. You can feed a family with a bucket from KFC (and while not advised) its certainly a common occournce, and one thats much cheaper than buying and making your own meat free meals.

    Though i personally think most meats at markets (red meat especially) and dairy (cheese and eggs especially) are remarkably expensive for what you get.

    But when you look at it, even in passing, something seems wrong, how can meats be competing (and in cases undercutting) costs of fruit and veg? Meats have a lot more work involved, more land needed, more time taken, more water and feed needed, more transport costs, less of a shelf life and so on, the answer is...the government, or rather the tax-payer, or rather, your money.

    The Dairy and Meat industries get *huge* subsities from the State to keep them competitive, and the numbers are huge, billions of dollars every year to make sure the meat and dairy industries can survive.

    But surly other food industries get this too? Well yes, to a lesser extent, behind the meat and dairy industry come the grains, they get a considerable second slice of the pie, though of course many of those grains will be turned onto feed for the animals in the meat and dairy industry...and what of Fruit and Veg? Combined they get less that one percent of the pie.

    Grapical representation of the subsidy pie, last year.



    Now, lets image for a minute that the government didn't spend your money supporting an industry that can't support itself. Or even, if it just cut say 10% from the meat and dairys and put that into fruit and veg...the world of a difference, no?
    And God help you if you want to grow organically, because you have to pay the government more for that ability. That's one of the reasons organic produce is more expensive than non-organic produce.
    "Government screws up everything. If government says black, you can bet it's white. If government says sit still for your safety, you'd better run for your life!"
    --Wayne Allyn Root
    www.rootforamerica.com
    www.FairTax.org

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