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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little-Acorn View Post
    Kathianne, if the states could enact laws that curtail any constitutional rights, we'd still have slavery.

    I'm not sure if you were making the statement bolded above, as an example of why states CANNOT curtail second amendment rights, or if you are actually saying you believe states CAN curtail them.

    Since the 2nd says the right to keep and bear arms cannot be infringed, this means NO government can do it. When the Framers wanted to ban the Fed govt from doing something but permit the states to do it (as protected by the 10th amendment as you mentioned), they specifically named the Fed govt as being the govt they were banning. The 1st amendment is an example: It forbids CONGRESS, by name, from making laws about religion, but says nothing about banning state or local govts from making such laws. And as you pointed out, the 10th says that "the states or the people" can still make such laws in that case. The Framers phrased the 1st that way, because many states at the time had official state religions, and the Framers didn't want to interfere with that.

    OTOH, the 2nd amendment does NOT say "Congress shall make no law infringing on the right of the people to keep and bear arms". It simply says "For the following reasons, the RPKBA shall not be infringed." Since it doesn't single out an specific govt for the ban (as the 1st does), that means that NO govt can infringe... including "the states or the people".

    Long after the Bill of Rights was ratified, the 14th amendment modified parts of it, possibly including the 1st amendment's statement that only the Fed govt is forbidden to make laws concerning religion. The 14th may mean that now all govts in the US are forbidden to make such laws. But no such modification was needed for the 2nd - it already meant ALL governments, from the day it was ratified.
    States can pass laws that require certain conditions or even forbid owning of arms. However, that doesn't mean that they will be upheld by the courts. Keep in mind though, as I think it was SassyLady who brought up in another thread, those making up the SCOTUS are also the ones that grant or deny Certiorari.

    What I believe is meant by both the 9th and 10th are limitations aimed at the Federal Government. As you said though, if unconstitutional the courts will strike them down. Though it may take years.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    States can pass laws that require certain conditions or even forbid owning of arms. However, that doesn't mean that they will be upheld by the courts. Keep in mind though, as I think it was SassyLady who brought up in another thread, those making up the SCOTUS are also the ones that grant or deny Certiorari.

    What I believe is meant by both the 9th and 10th are limitations aimed at the Federal Government. As you said though, if unconstitutional the courts will strike them down. Though it may take years.
    Well, I suppose technically the states can PASS laws saying it's OK to kidnap black people off the street, put chains on them, and force them to work on your farm for no pay and mediocre room and board. That violates a BUNCH of Constitutional amendments, of course... but if a state put that law in a bill, voted on it, got a majority, and the governor signed it, I guess a giant lightning bolt would not flash down from the sky and obliterate the capital before it technically became law. So in that sense, you are right. But of course, the law would be found unconstitutional by any court.

    A state could do the same with a law saying that people within its borders cannot own any gun. Or it could pass one saying people in its borders could not own a Colt .45 pistol. I hold that both laws would be just as unconstitutional as the one about slavery. And with the Courts' tendency to sometimes find clearly-unconstitutional acts constitutional (see Kelo v. New London, US v. Miller, etc.), it might even happen that a court would somehow find these gun-banning laws constitutional.

    If you are simply arguing that a state CAN make an unconstitutional law, with no regard for how long it would stay on the books before a court pointed out that it was unconstitutional, then I must agree with you: Yes, it can. As my Dad used to say, "Anything is POSSIBLE."

    (BTW, in California it is illegal to own an SKS Sporter, a rifle in 7.62x39 caliber. The state has banned them - an act I consider completely unconstitutional)

    A question I asked earlier still remains, though: If government has the authority to ban some guns, how does it NOT have the authority to (eventually) ban all guns?
    Last edited by Little-Acorn; 06-02-2012 at 11:58 PM.
    "The social contract exists so that everyone doesn’t have to squat in the dust holding a spear to protect his woman and his meat all day every day. It does not exist so that the government can take your spear, your meat, and your woman because it knows better what to do with them." - Instapundit.com

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little-Acorn View Post
    Well, I suppose technically the states can PASS laws saying it's OK to kidnap black people off the street, put chains on them, and force them to work on your farm for no pay and mediocre room and board. That violates a BUNCH of Constitutional amendments, of course... but if a state put that law in a bill, voted on it, got a majority, and the governor signed it, I guess a giant lightning bolt would not flash down from the sky and obliterate the capital before it technically became law. So in that sense, you are right. But of course, the law would be found unconstitutional by any court.

    A state could do the same with a law saying that people within its borders cannot own any gun. Or it could pass one saying people in its borders could not own a Colt .45 pistol. I hold that both laws would be just as unconstitutional as the one about slavery. And with the Courts' tendency to sometimes find clearly-unconstitutional acts constitutional (see Kelo v. New London, US v. Miller, etc.), it might even happen that a court would somehow find these gun-banning laws constitutional.

    If you are simply arguing that a state CAN make an unconstitutional law, with no regard for how long it would stay on the books before a court pointed out that it was unconstitutional, then I must agree with you: Yes, it can. As my Dad used to say, "Anything is POSSIBLE."

    A question I asked earlier still remains, though: If government has the authority to ban some guns, how does it NOT have the authority to (eventually) ban all guns?
    Thinking about what you posted earlier about the absolute wording of the 2nd, I'm tending towards agreement. I think what has clouded my reasoning is the fact that there are so many laws already passed. That doesn't make them right or constitutional, but does tend towards thinking the state has the right.

    Personally, I've always thought the slippery slope has much merit.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little-Acorn View Post

    (BTW, in California it is illegal to own an SKS Sporter, a rifle in 7.62x39 caliber. The state has banned them - an act I consider completely unconstitutional)

    A question I asked earlier still remains, though: If government has the authority to ban some guns, how does it NOT have the authority to (eventually) ban all guns?
    CA sucks. Can't buy a .50 cal either; despite them NEVER being use in an act of violence. Just ridiculous.
    But to answer your question, I dont think anything is stopping them; and technically, I don't think it would necessarily be unconstitutional. If arms could be construed to be slingshots and arrows, then banning guns could be perfectly acceptable. But as I've said, only if the government too arms itself with slingshots and arrows.
    He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.AeschylusRead more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...zeMUwcpY1Io.99

  5. #20
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    I had to go looking around to see if I could find some writings on the second amendment, other than NRA or from specific court cases, I found this:

    http://constitution.org/mil/embar2nd.htm

    It's pretty interesting, just don't get caught up in first few paragraphs when getting a sense that the writer is liberal, he is. He acknowledges wanting gun control, be ready for that. Also ignore all the linkages, they are to the footnotes, which you can peruse later if interested.

    Some highlights, for me, anyways:

    <center> The Embarrassing Second Amendment

    Sanford Levinson

    University of Texas at Austin School of Law

    Reprinted from the Yale Law Journal, Volume 99, pp. 637-659

    I. The Politics Of Interpreting The Second Amendment

    To put it mildly, the Second Amendment is not at the forefront of constitutional discussion, at least as registered in what the academy regards as the venues for such discussion — law reviews, 13 casebooks, 14 and other scholarly legal publications. As Professor Larue has recently written, "the second amendment is not taken seriously by most scholars." 15
    ...


    I cannot help but suspect that the best explanation for the absence of the Second Amendment from the legal consciousness of the elite bar, including that component found in the legal academy, 28 is derived from a mixture of sheer opposition to the idea of private ownership of guns and the perhaps subconscious fear that altogether plausible, perhaps even "winning," interpretations of the Second Amendment would present real hurdles to those of us supporting prohibitory regulation. Thus the title of this essay — The Embarrassing Second Amendment — for I want to suggest that the Amendment may be profoundly embarrassing to many who both support such regulation and view themselves as committed to zealous adherence to the Bill of Rights (such as most members of the ACLU). Indeed, one sometimes discovers members of the NRA who are equally committed members of the ACLU, differing with the latter only on the issue of the Second Amendment but otherwise genuinely sharing the libertarian viewpoint of the ACLU.

    It is not my style to offer "correct" or "incorrect" interpretations of the Constitution. 29 My major interest is in delineating the rhetorical structures of American constitutional argument and elaborating what is sometimes called the "politics of interpretation," that is, the factors that explain why one or another approach will appeal to certain analysts at certain times, while other analysts, or times, will favor quite different approaches. Thus my general tendency to regard as wholly untenable any approach to the Constitution that describes itself as obviously correct and condemns its opposition as simply wrong holds for the Second Amendment as well. In some contexts, this would lead me to label as tendentious the certainty of NRA advocates that the Amendment means precisely what they assert it does. In this particular context — i.e., the pages of a journal whose audience is much more likely to be drawn from an elite, liberal portion of the public — I will instead be suggesting that the skepticism should run in the other direction, That is, we might consider the possibility that "our" views of the Amendment, perhaps best reflected in Professor Tribe's offhand treatment of it, might themselves be equally deserving of the "tendentious" label.

    ...

    One of the school's most important writers, of course, was James Harrington, who not only was in influential at the time but also has recently been given a certain pride of place by one of the most prominent of contemporary "neo-republicans," Professor Frank Michelman. 50 One historian describes Harrington as having made "the most significant contribution to English libertarian attitudes toward arms, the individual, and society." 51 He was a central figure in the development of the ideas of popular sovereignty and republicanism. 52 For Harrington, preservation of republican liberty requires independence, which rests primarily on possession of adequate property to make men free from coercion by employers or landlords. But widespread ownership of land is not sufficient. These independent yeoman would also bear arms. As Professor Morgan puts it, "[T]hese independent yeoman, armed and embodied in a militia, are also a popular government's best protection against its enemies, whether they be aggressive foreign monarchs or scheming demagogues within the nation itself." 53

    ...

    Surely one of the foundations of American political thought of the period was the well-justified concern about political corruption and consequent governmental tyranny. Even the Federalists, fending off their opponents who accused them of foisting an oppressive new scheme upon the American people, were careful to acknowledge the risk of tyranny. James Madison, for example, speaks in Federalist Number Forty- Six of "the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation." 59 The advantage in question was not merely the defense of American borders; a standing army might well accomplish that. Rather, an armed public was advantageous in protecting political liberty. It is therefore no surprise that the Federal Farmer, the nom de plume of an anti-federalist critic of the new Constitution and its absence of a Bill of Rights, could write that "to preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always posses s arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them..." 60 On this matter, at least, there was no cleavage between the pro-ratification Madison and his opponent.
    In his influential Commentaries on the Constitution, Joseph Story, certainly no friend of Anti-Federalism, emphasized the "importance" of the Second Amendment. 61 He went on to describe the militia as the "natural defence of a free country" not only "against sudden foreign invasions" and "domestic insurrections," with which one might well expect a Federalist to be concerned, but also against "domestic usurpations of power by rulers." 62 "The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered," Story wrote, "as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power by rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them." 63

    ...
    </center>
    It's longish, but really interesting. Gives more 'background' information for the times and at least to me, strengthens LA's argument of why the language ended up so absolute in the 2nd amendment.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    I had to go looking around to see if I could find some writings on the second amendment, other than NRA or from specific court cases, I found this:

    http://constitution.org/mil/embar2nd.htm

    It's pretty interesting, just don't get caught up in first few paragraphs when getting a sense that the writer is liberal, he is. He acknowledges wanting gun control, be ready for that. Also ignore all the linkages, they are to the footnotes, which you can peruse later if interested.

    Some highlights, for me, anyways:



    It's longish, but really interesting. Gives more 'background' information for the times and at least to me, strengthens LA's argument of why the language ended up so absolute in the 2nd amendment.

    Interesting read. Thanks

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConHog View Post
    Interesting read. Thanks
    You're welcome. I just found it interesting how much of what was said echoed what LA had posted in response to mine.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    You're welcome. I just found it interesting how much of what was said echoed what LA had posted in response to mine.
    I don't agree with his conclusions , but admit he makes some valid arguments.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConHog View Post
    I don't agree with his conclusions , but admit he makes some valid arguments.
    Actually as you said earlier, in the main we agreed with our starting points. After thinking of what LA said, then looking up some sources of what was intended by those writing the Constitution and later the Bill of Rights, the language of the Second Amendment is very different than the rest. Why? May have been pressure from the anti-federalists, though that seems to be answered negatively by the article.

    While it's true that they didn't have nukes and such back in the 1700's, they seemed pretty strict in how 'militarized' they wanted their home troops armed-very limited.


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathianne View Post
    Actually as you said earlier, in the main we agreed with our starting points. After thinking of what LA said, then looking up some sources of what was intended by those writing the Constitution and later the Bill of Rights, the language of the Second Amendment is very different than the rest. Why? May have been pressure from the anti-federalists, though that seems to be answered negatively by the article.

    While it's true that they didn't have nukes and such back in the 1700's, they seemed pretty strict in how 'militarized' they wanted their home troops armed-very limited.
    There is very little to go on when trying to figure out where the founders stood on WMD of the day. Or really even where they stood on allowing citizens to carry the same weapons as the military had.

    My OPINION is that they wouldn't like the idea of some of the morons running around today having the right to own machine guns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ConHog View Post
    There is very little to go on when trying to figure out where the founders stood on WMD of the day. Or really even where they stood on allowing citizens to carry the same weapons as the military had.

    My OPINION is that they wouldn't like the idea of some of the morons running around today having the right to own machine guns.
    Re: machine guns. It seems to me machine guns are regulated by the Feds, and I don't have a problem with them regulating what constitutes arms-- but it should be a federal threshold, not a state one. To own a class 1 weapon, often called a destructive device, there's significant hurdles one must meet: background checks, how it's stored and what not. I don't think any moron can or should get one. For one thing theyre crazy expensive to own. Hell ammo alone would rule out most ownership. Which has a lot to do with keep and bear; that even military members can't take one home, can they? I forget his name, but there's a guy in the SF bay area (now deceased) who has one of the best tank collections in the world; all demilitarized by drilling a hole in the breach. I dont 2nd amendment advicates take issue with such things; Clearly there needs to be limits, but as its clearly are right designated by the COTUS, it would only make sense that's it's a federal, not state issue. I mean, does SWAT need a machine gun? I'd say no.
    He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.AeschylusRead more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...zeMUwcpY1Io.99

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by logroller View Post
    Re: machine guns. It seems to me machine guns are regulated by the Feds, and I don't have a problem with them regulating what constitutes arms-- but it should be a federal threshold, not a state one. To own a class 1 weapon, often called a destructive device, there's significant hurdles one must meet: background checks, how it's stored and what not. I don't think any moron can or should get one. For one thing theyre crazy expensive to own. Hell ammo alone would rule out most ownership. Which has a lot to do with keep and bear; that even military members can't take one home, can they? I forget his name, but there's a guy in the SF bay area (now deceased) who has one of the best tank collections in the world; all demilitarized by drilling a hole in the breach. I dont 2nd amendment advicates take issue with such things; Clearly there needs to be limits, but as its clearly are right designated by the COTUS, it would only make sense that's it's a federal, not state issue. I mean, does SWAT need a machine gun? I'd say no.
    I have to agree. Seems they were particulary interested in keeping the standing troops to limits of the people. The didn't want troops that could overtake the populace.


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    Quote Originally Posted by logroller View Post
    If arms could be construed to be slingshots and arrows, then banning guns could be perfectly acceptable. But as I've said, only if the government too arms itself with slingshots and arrows.
    Well, you mentioned that something was ridiculous, and here you have now given another example of same.

    Does your copy of the 2nd amendment read, "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, unless the government redefines some weapons as not being arms any more." ?

    If your copy says that, then I guess I can understand why you made the statement above.

    If it doesn't, then I am at a loss to understand your statement, and can only think of the word you used earlier to describe CA Barrett bans.
    "The social contract exists so that everyone doesn’t have to squat in the dust holding a spear to protect his woman and his meat all day every day. It does not exist so that the government can take your spear, your meat, and your woman because it knows better what to do with them." - Instapundit.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Little-Acorn View Post
    Well, you mentioned that something was ridiculous, and here you have now given another example of same.

    Does your copy of the 2nd amendment read, "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, unless the government redefines some weapons as not being arms any more." ?

    If your copy says that, then I guess I can understand why you made the statement above.

    If it doesn't, then I am at a loss to understand your statement, and can only think of the word you used earlier to describe CA Barrett bans.
    It was purposefully absurd; no arguments there. I meant it to dispel those notions of people possessing nuclear arms; perhaps that was unclear, or you just felt like meeting sarcasm in kind. What I'm saying is that if the state is armed with any given weapon for purposes of suppressing rebellion, then so too should the People be able to keep and bear such arms; as opposed to those arms which serve no other function than making war (which is a power granted to Congress, along with any such measures necessary to carry that out)-- does that make sense?
    He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.AeschylusRead more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...zeMUwcpY1Io.99

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    To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

    To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers,
    and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
    Why couldn't Congress determine the armament? It seems they recognize the Militia is not wholly under the employ of the government; yet it mentions the organizing, arming and disciplining of the Militia as a whole-- that would include the Militia of the 2nd Amendment.
    Last edited by logroller; 06-04-2012 at 02:00 AM.
    He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.AeschylusRead more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...zeMUwcpY1Io.99

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