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    Default The Tenth Amendment


    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


    Probably one of the more controversial Amendments as many seem to believe that it means unless something is SPECIFICALLY listed in the COTUS that means the federal government can't do it, when clearly that is not the case.

    Strangely enough , it usually works out that what people claim the government can't do is what they don't want the government to do while at the same time being okay with the government doing things they want them to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ConHog View Post
    Probably one of the more controversial Amendments as many seem to believe that it means unless something is SPECIFICALLY listed in the COTUS that means the federal government can't do it, when clearly that is not the case.
    You've just described the should be scenario not the is scenario. Isn't everything the Federal government does Constitutional at least by some definition?
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


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    Quote Originally Posted by ConHog
    ...Probably one of the more controversial Amendments as many seem to believe that it means unless something is SPECIFICALLY listed in the COTUS that means the federal government can't do it, when clearly that is not the case.
    Obviously it's not "clearly not the case" if "many" understand it to mean what you outlined.
    I'm one of the many , any normal reading of those words gives you that meaning, I think it's even clearer than the 2nd amendment.


    Quote Originally Posted by FJ
    Isn't everything the Federal government does Constitutional at least by some definition?
    Cough!!! What?

    FJ c'mon that's Nixon talking. "It's not illegal if the president does it." That's King Louie Speaking "It's good to be the King".

    here's a basic concept gentlemen. the LAW is KING.
    the Constitution is the highest law in the land it means what the founders intended to mean.
    If the people in Gov't breaks the Law it is a crime JUST THE SAME as if a lowly citizen breaks the Law. and the Constitution Is LAW mainly RESTRAINING Gov't. It is specific to the FEDERAL gov't
    so if it goes outside it's clearly outlined boundaries it is breaking the law no matter what badges, titles or uniforms the people are wearing claim.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Cough!!! What?

    FJ c'mon that's Nixon talking. "It's not illegal if the president does it." That's King Louie Speaking "It's good to be the King".

    here's a basic concept gentlemen. the LAW is KING.
    the Constitution is the highest law in the land it means what the founders intended to mean.
    If the people in Gov't breaks the Law it is a crime JUST THE SAME as if a lowly citizen breaks the Law. and the Constitution Is LAW mainly RESTRAINING Gov't. It is specific to the FEDERAL gov't
    so if it goes outside it's clearly outlined boundaries it is breaking the law no matter what badges, titles or uniforms the people are wearing claim.
    It was a question offered in the great Socratic method of inquiry. Show me a law that is unconstitutional and is not being challenged in the courts. You may have different opinions on constitutionality but the question remains.

    Nixon.
    Last edited by fj1200; 06-18-2012 at 02:32 PM.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post





    Obviously it's not "clearly not the case" if "many" understand it to mean what you outlined.
    I'm one of the many , any normal reading of those words gives you that meaning, I think it's even clearer than the 2nd amendment.



    Cough!!! What?

    FJ c'mon that's Nixon talking. "It's not illegal if the president does it." That's King Louie Speaking "It's good to be the King".

    here's a basic concept gentlemen. the LAW is KING.
    the Constitution is the highest law in the land it means what the founders intended to mean.
    If the people in Gov't breaks the Law it is a crime JUST THE SAME as if a lowly citizen breaks the Law. and the Constitution Is LAW mainly RESTRAINING Gov't. It is specific to the FEDERAL gov't
    so if it goes outside it's clearly outlined boundaries it is breaking the law no matter what badges, titles or uniforms the people are wearing claim.

    Seriously?

    EPA - Constitutional, or not?
    Highways- Constitutional, or not?
    FDA- Constitutional, or not?

    and right on down the line with things that are NOT specifically mentioned in the COTUS but which are CLEARLY constitutional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    It was a question offered in the great Socratic method of inquiry. Show me a law that is unconstitutional and is not being challenged in the courts. You may have different opinions on constitutionality but the question remains.

    Nixon.
    Yes Nixon.

    There are probably thousands of laws that have not been challenged that are unconstitutional.
    Do you really want me to give you a list,
    I drove past the airport the other day... TSA




    Quote Originally Posted by ConHog View Post
    Seriously?

    EPA - Constitutional, or not?
    Highways- Constitutional, or not?
    FDA- Constitutional, or not?

    and right on down the line with things that are NOT specifically mentioned in the COTUS but which are CLEARLY constitutional.
    EPA - Constitutional, or not? NOT
    Highways- Constitutional, or not? hmm Not
    FDA- Constitutional, or not? To be Frank umm it's Not.

    The thing that's clear is that we have them now. And we think we'd be hard press to live without um.
    But in any normal reading of the Constitution the Fed Gov't doesn't have any of those powers/authority.

    If they are Constitutional give me the sections in the constitution where they come from.
    I'll wait.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Yes Nixon.

    There are probably thousands of laws that have not been challenged that are unconstitutional.
    Do you really want me to give you a list,
    I drove past the airport the other day... TSA






    EPA - Constitutional, or not? NOT
    Highways- Constitutional, or not? hmm Not
    FDA- Constitutional, or not? To be Frank umm it's Not.

    The thing that's clear is that we have them now. And we think we'd be hard press to live without um.
    But in any normal reading of the Constitution the Fed Gov't doesn't have any of those powers/authority.

    If they are Constitutional give me the sections in the constitution where they come from.
    I'll wait.

    Really?

    Hmmm I believe the EPA and teh FDA are BOTH essential to well being of this nation. Disagree? Go to Mexico City for a week and see if you can survive the smog and dysentery caused by no oversight of clean air or safe foods.

    Highways? Clearly created for national defense purposes.

    Thanks for proving my point

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    Quote Originally Posted by ConHog View Post
    Really?

    Hmmm I believe the EPA and teh FDA are BOTH essential to well being of this nation. Disagree? Go to Mexico City for a week and see if you can survive the smog and dysentery caused by no oversight of clean air or safe foods.

    Highways? Clearly created for national defense purposes.

    Thanks for proving my point
    So your point was they are Not Constitutional but we need them so it doesn't matter.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    So your point was they are Not Constitutional but we need them so it doesn't matter.
    no my point is they ARE constitutional.

    The federal government is clearly empowered to oh let's see regulate interstate trade? Provide for national defense? Provide for the general welfare of the country?

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Yes Nixon.

    There are probably thousands of laws that have not been challenged that are unconstitutional.
    Do you really want me to give you a list,
    I drove past the airport the other day... TSA
    I think most of us are aware of youropinion of what is constitutional versus not.

    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    EPA - Constitutional, or not? NOT
    Highways- Constitutional, or not? hmm Not
    FDA- Constitutional, or not? To be Frank umm it's Not.

    The thing that's clear is that we have them now. And we think we'd be hard press to live without um.
    But in any normal reading of the Constitution the Fed Gov't doesn't have any of those powers/authority.

    If they are Constitutional give me the sections in the constitution where they come from.
    I'll wait.
    Commerce Clause.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    I think most of us are aware of youropinion of what is constitutional versus not.



    Commerce Clause.
    Litigating interstate horse-trade disputes...that's it.
    He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.AeschylusRead more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...zeMUwcpY1Io.99

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    The misinterpretation of the 10th began in 1937....

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    the much abused commerce clause , you can drive an aircraft carrier through some folks interpretation of it.

    You can't walk your dog
    commerce clause: you BOUGHT the dog right, it had shots the shots came from out of state ergo facto presto?
    Your Fence is to high
    commerce clause: you BOUGHT the fence correct, do you know what state the woods from hmmm?
    EPA
    commerce clause: people BUY things from the factories that pollute and the pollution crosses state lines, am i right?

    the anti federalist warned that that clause would be one cause for a lot of problems from ambitious congress people to grow the power of gov't. and you guys love it.

    Maybe you guys should call it the Santa Claus because it gives the congress ANY powers you want the way you guys read it.
    others don't see it the way you guys do,
    In United States v Lopez1, for the first time in sixty years, the Supreme Court of the United States held a statute to be unconstitutional because it exceeded the powers of Congress under the Commerce Clause2. In his concurring opinion, Justice Thomas offered a critique of contemporary Commerce Clause doctrine--based on the original meaning of the clause--that went well beyond the majority opinion. According to Justice Thomas, "at the time the original Constitution was ratified, 'commerce' consisted of selling, buying, and bartering, as well as transporting for these purposes."3 He also cited the etymology of the word, which literally means "with merchandise."4 He then noted that "when Federalists and Anti-Federalists discussed the Commerce Clause during the ratification period, they often used trade (in its selling/bartering sense) and commerce interchangeably."5 The term "commerce," according to Justice Thomas, "was used in contradistinction to productive activities such as manufacturing and agriculture."6
    In his opinion, Justice Thomas endorsed the view of the meaning of "commerce" that the Supreme Court of the Progressive Era used to strike down various regulations of economic activity7. In cases such as United States v E.C. Knight Co8, the Court distinguished "commerce" from manufacturing or agriculture, and held that the regulation of either manufacturing or agriculture exceeded the powers of Congress under the clause9. ....
    http://www.bu.edu/rbarnett/Original.htm

    that's just one, there are others but an honest historical interpretation of the Clause WILL NOT give you an EPA or many other federal agencies and laws.
    The Federal Gov't was never granted the authority by the people.
    Last edited by revelarts; 06-19-2012 at 05:59 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    I have to Correct myself, the anti federalist didn't predict the commerce clause would be a problem. they thought General welfare would be the -congress can do anything clause-. And there's another sections where they thought might be used similarly I've been trying to remember but It won't come to me. (EDIT: the "Necessary and Proper clause")

    But here's quick run down of the original intent of the commerce clause and how the supreme court let/helped it get out of hand.

    2. The Commerce Clause

    There has probably been no more insidious and far-reaching example of the Supreme court’s ability to “enlarge the sphere” of Federal power than their rulings on the meaning of “The Commerce Clause”. It turned out to be the most gaping loophole in the entire Constitution, what law school professors refer to as “The Everything Clause.” It is so broad a power, that it now grants to the Federal Government the power to regulate activity that is neither interstate nor commerce. But what did it mean originally? Let us examine this question, beginning with the clause itself, from Article 1, Section 8:
    To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
    At the time the Constitution was drafted, the power to regulate interstate commerce was understood to mean the right to impose tariffs on imports and exports. That’s it. Nothing more. The Framers gave this power to the Federal Legislature in order to promote harmony among the states by preventing interstate trade wars. James Madison summed it up in Federalist #42:
    A very material object of this power was the relief of the States which import and export through other States, from the improper contributions levied on them by the latter. Were these at liberty to regulate the trade between State and State, it must be foreseen that ways would be found out to load the articles of import and export, during the passage through their jurisdiction, with duties which would fall on the makers of the latter and the consumers of the former. We may be assured by past experience, that such a practice would be introduced by future contrivances; and both by that and a common knowledge of human affairs, that it would nourish unceasing animosities, and not improbably terminate in serious interruptions of the public tranquillity…
    … The necessity of a superintending authority over the reciprocal trade of confederated States, has been illustrated by other examples as well as our own. In Switzerland, where the Union is so very slight, each canton is obliged to allow to merchandises a passage through its jurisdiction into other cantons, without an augmentation of the tolls. In Germany it is a law of the empire, that the princes and states shall not lay tolls or customs on bridges, rivers, or passages, without the consent of the emperor and the diet; though it appears from a quotation in an antecedent paper, that the practice in this, as in many other instances in that confederacy, has not followed the law, and has produced there the mischiefs which have been foreseen here. Among the restraints imposed by the Union of the Netherlands on its members, one is, that they shall not establish imposts disadvantageous to their neighbors, without the general permission.
    The Commerce Clause, then, had one distinct purpose—to prevent states from imposing tariffs on imports and exports from other states, in order to “provide for the harmony and proper intercourse among the States,” as Madison characterized it. It was basically a free trade agreement among the states.

    The Commerce Clause today, after nearly two centuries of Federal Judicial interpretation, goes far beyond its original meaning and intent. It now includes the power to prevent interstate tariffs and trade wars, it includes the power to regulate any activity, commercial or not, interstate or intrastate. It doesn’t even have to have a “substantial effect on interstate commerce.” The court merely has to decide that there is a “rational basis” for thinking that an activity has a “substantial effect” on interstate commerce, for that activity to fall under the power granted by the Commerce Clause. It is, indeed, the Everything Clause.

    How did we get so far from its original, limited meaning? By the powers granted to the Federal Judiciary in Article 3, Section 2. As predicted in Anti-Federalist Paper 82:
    They will be able to extend the limits of the general government gradually, and by insensible degrees, and to accommodate themselves to the temper of the people. Their decisions on the meaning of the constitution will commonly take place in cases which arise between individuals, with which the public will not be generally acquainted. One adjudication will form a precedent to the next, and this to a following one.
    Law students could rattle off the landmark cases: Gibbons v Ogden, Swift v United States, Wickard v Fillburn. Case by case, precedent by precedent, the meaning was stretched like silly putty. Meatpackers fell under Commerce Clause power, because “although their activity was geographically "local," they had an important effect on the "current of commerce". Stockyards were subject to federal regulation, because they were “a throat through which the current [of commerce] flows.”

    The climax of this expansion of Federal power was Wickard v Fillburn, a New Deal era case which proclaimed:
    But even if appellee's activity be local and though it may not be regarded as commerce, it may still, whatever its nature, be reached by Congress if it exerts a substantial economic effect on interstate commerce.”
    In Wickard, the government was asserting its power to restrict the production of wheat. They were trying to raise wheat prices by reducing the supply by fiat. They asserted that even if someone was growing wheat to feed their own animals—it was not moving across state lines, it was not being sold—it still fell under the Commerce Clause regulatory power because it had a “substantial effect” on wheat supply generally. ...
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2363918/posts

    pretty sad isn't it?
    Or do you agree with the court and congress that --"whatever its nature" congress can reach it-- is an honest reading of the clause?
    Last edited by revelarts; 06-20-2012 at 07:44 AM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    I have to Correct myself, the anti federalist didn't predict the commerce clause would be a problem. they thought General welfare would be the -congress can do anything clause-. And there's another sections where they thought might be used similarly I've been trying to remember but It won't come to me. (EDIT: the "Necessary and Proper clause")

    But here's quick run down of the original intent of the commerce clause and how the supreme court let/helped it get out of hand.


    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2363918/posts

    pretty sad isn't it?
    Or do you agree with the court and congress that --"whatever its nature" congress can reach it-- is an honest reading of the clause?
    Rev, like I said in another thread, fond memories aside, the founding fathers weren't perfect. In fact the COTUS is pretty poorly written in areas and hard to know what they really meant. So yes, you are right, sometimes people jam stuff in and interpret the COTUS to make it fit; but on the other hand you have to admit that sometimes people like you use the ambiguity to claim that things that most people accept as constitutional are not constitutional.

    Take the EPA , for example. It's pretty clear that the EPA didn't just spring out of thin air, rather it came about for a reason. That reason being that states were fighting about pollution that was crossing state lines.

    You keep saying it is a local problem, but I would suggest that CA would have a legitimate beef that it is not a local problem if Washington is letting companies dump waste into the river water and that waste is migrating to CA drinking supply; just as an example. that makes it interstate commerce

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