Joe Paterno and Penn State

[logroller]

Wow!!! The monetary punishment I hav no problem with, but th sanctioning and removal of wins is crap. USC received a lesser punishment for things that were obviously against NCAA rules=cheating to win. I'm not contending the acts were any less heinous-- indisputably, they are-- but it seems like they're trying to make a point; that point being, th NCAA franchise is more important than sport. I'm so sick of college sports; I'm done with it.

[jimnyc]

Wow!!! The monetary punishment I hav no problem with, but th sanctioning and removal of wins is crap. USC received a lesser punishment for things that were obviously against NCAA rules=cheating to win. I'm not contending the acts were any less heinous-- indisputably, they are-- but it seems like they're trying to make a point; that point being, th NCAA franchise is more important than sport. I'm so sick of college sports; I'm done with it.

Yeah, outside of the case with PSU, college football has become such a scam in the past 20 years, or likely longer. Everything is supposed to be a game, but it's all about money and corruption.

But that's about how I feel, charge PSU as a school as much as you want. Charges against the mandatory reporters, and make it severe, although probably a pre-set charge. McQueary, his career and any legacy he was starting to build, is long gone. JoePa, 61 years of commitment to the school, all gone. Statues, gone, murals gone. His legacy is trashed regardless. But what took place on the field, and the wins, had nothing to do with the controversy, and in no way seems to fit any crimes committed and does more harm to "innocents" than it does for those involved.

[gabosaurus]

An interesting, although lengthy, story about just how powerful and influential Joe Paterno was.
What is really frightening is how many Division I college campuses this is true on. The reporters who helped break the USC scandal received death threats. College football is out of control.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/15/us/tri...ate/index.html

[Toro]

It's the right decision, though maybe the university got off lightly. They had to take away the wins.

The reason why they didn't turn Sandusky in was because it would have hurt the football program. By taking the wins away, it hurts the football program retroactively, and acts as a deterrent to those who would turn a blind eye to heinous crimes. Paterno benefited from the crimes. You don't allow those who covered up the crime to benefit from that crime.

The theory is this - If it became known that the crimes began in 1998, from the moment that Paterno and the university decided not to turn Sandusky in, they are involved in a cover-up. At any point in time, you can argue that because Paterno decided to cover up the crimes, he should have been fired. Thus, all the wins after 1998 would never have happened because Paterno would not have been coaching Penn State.

FTR, the NCAA stripped Bowden of 14 wins because of a cheating scandal for which he had no knowledge, the theory being that had the players been caught, they would have been expelled. Because Bowden benefited from the players being on his team, he was stripped of the wins, even though he had no knowledge of the scandal. So the NCAA had no choice but to strip Paterno of the wins.

[logroller]

It's the right decision, though maybe the university got off lightly. They had to take away the wins.

The reason why they didn't turn Sandusky in was because it would have hurt the football program. By taking the wins away, it hurts the football program retroactively, and acts as a deterrent to those who would turn a blind eye to heinous crimes. Paterno benefited from the crimes. You don't allow those who covered up the crime to benefit from that crime.

The theory is this - If it became known that the crimes began in 1998, from the moment that Paterno and the university decided not to turn Sandusky in, they are involved in a cover-up. At any point in time, you can argue that because Paterno decided to cover up the crimes, he should have been fired. Thus, all the wins after 1998 would never have happened because Paterno would not have been coaching Penn State.

FTR, the NCAA stripped Bowden of 14 wins because of a cheating scandal for which he had no knowledge, the theory being that had the players been caught, they would have been expelled. Because Bowden benefited from the players being on his team, he was stripped of the wins, even though he had no knowledge of the scandal. So the NCAA had no choice but to strip Paterno of the wins.

Certainly a scandal hurts a university's booster capital, but money doesn't equal wins...atleast it shouldn't, and that's why paying players is punishable by taking wins regardless of a coach's knowledge. As I said, monetary fines I have no problem with and maybe I'm missing something, but how did the coverup result in more wins? Had paterno reported the act in 1998 would he have been fired? How many players would have been expelled? FTR, Sandusky was removed from his official capacity as a coach; so how integral was he in earning those wins?

[jimnyc]

Certainly a scandal hurts a university's booster capital, but money doesn't equal wins...atleast it shouldn't, and that's why paying players is punishable by taking wins regardless of a coach's knowledge. As I said, monetary fines I have no problem with and maybe I'm missing something, but how did the coverup result in more wins? Had paterno reported the act in 1998 would he have been fired? How many players would have been expelled? FTR, Sandusky was removed from his official capacity as a coach; so how integral was he in earning those wins?

It's an appeasement to the masses to take the actions they did, while hurting innocent students and athletes. Huge fines to the school I have no issue with either, even triple what they fined them, Sandusky the gas chamber, jail for the mandatory reporters and Joe's legacy is ruined. But removal of the wins and scholarships only serves to hurt people who had no involvement whatsoever with the abuses. And acknowledging what Joe did was wrong, no, it wouldn't have changed anything as far as the teams were concerned and their W-L record.

[Roo]

Not to change the subject, but the Yankees got Ichiro in a trade.

[Toro]

Certainly a scandal hurts a university's booster capital, but money doesn't equal wins...atleast it shouldn't, and that's why paying players is punishable by taking wins regardless of a coach's knowledge. As I said, monetary fines I have no problem with and maybe I'm missing something, but how did the coverup result in more wins? Had paterno reported the act in 1998 would he have been fired? How many players would have been expelled? FTR, Sandusky was removed from his official capacity as a coach; so how integral was he in earning those wins?

If Sandusky had been fired as soon as they knew - or at least suspended pending an investigation - then there would be no issue. The issue is that they swept it under the rug and the crimes continued. The moment they decided to sweep it under the rug is the moment they are culpable. That is when the offense became fireable. That is when Paterno and the University abandoned their moral responsibility.

Raping children is a worse offense than cheating on music tests, as they did at FSU. Many issues transcend sport. This is one of them. The NCAA is right to vacate the wins.

[logroller]

If Sandusky had been fired as soon as they knew - or at least suspended pending an investigation - then there would be no issue. The issue is that they swept it under the rug and the crimes continued. The moment they decided to sweep it under the rug is the moment they are culpable. That is when the offense became fireable. That is when Paterno and the University abandoned their moral responsibility.

Raping children is a worse offense than cheating on music tests, as they did at FSU. Many issues transcend sport. This is one of them. The NCAA is right to vacate the wins.

seriously, you sound like we should raze penn st to the ground...punishing thousands for what a few did. I hardly consider that morally right. Did the non-reporting result in any of those wins--yes or no?

[Toro]

seriously, you sound like we should raze penn st to the ground...punishing thousands for what a few did. I hardly consider that morally right. Did the non-reporting result in any of those wins--yes or no?

If Paterno would have been fired for the cover-up, yes. That's the point. Paterno would not have been credited for the wins. So he loses those wins. From the point they decided to cover it up is the point at which he should have been fired.

And saying they should lose wins =/= razing to the ground. In all due respect, I believe this attitude is part of the problem that allows this shit to happen. My mother and father were both professional athletes, as were my uncle and grandfather, so I'm hardly anti-jock. But people lose perspective and elevate sports way, way beyond it's importance in life.

[jimnyc]

If Paterno would have been fired for the cover-up, yes. That's the point. Paterno would not have been credited for the wins. So he loses those wins. From the point they decided to cover it up is the point at which he should have been fired.

And saying they should lose wins =/= razing to the ground. In all due respect, I believe this attitude is part of the problem that allows this shit to happen. My mother and father were both professional athletes, as were my uncle and grandfather, so I'm hardly anti-jock. But people lose perspective and elevate sports way, way beyond it's importance in life.

Why punish former and current players? What did all of these athletes at PSU have to do with the abuse scandal? Vacating wins is not only a slap in the face to so many former players, but the reduction in scholarships, ban of bowl games and everything else only penalizes the current players and coaches, who had zilch to do with anything. Maybe place an asterisk next to Joe's name or something, and fine the university as a whole a trillion bucks for all I care, but taking action that hurts the on field current players makes no sense. Taking games and bowl victories away from former players helps no one and sends no appropriate message. IMO, the punishment should directly and only effect those who made violations.

[logroller]

If Paterno would have been fired for the cover-up, yes. That's the point. Paterno would not have been credited for the wins. So he loses those wins. From the point they decided to cover it up is the point at which he should have been fired.

And saying they should lose wins =/= razing to the ground. In all due respect, I believe this attitude is part of the problem that allows this shit to happen. My mother and father were both professional athletes, as were my uncle and grandfather, so I'm hardly anti-jock. But people lose perspective and elevate sports way, way beyond it's importance in life.

I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Paterno was fired for the coverup, wasn't he? Had he reported the act, (not covered it up), he would have still been coach and still won those games, right? So how did the coverup result in those wins?

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think the NCAA benefits greatly from the elevation of sport beyond that which it is important in life, especially in regards to D-1 football; whose. Owl games are about the most perverted travesties ever committed upon competitive sport. It's about the money, from the top down, not he wins. Taking the wins away does nothing but try to undo the honest hard work of those unconnected to the connected. Its not like other coaches look at this and say, "wow, guess I better not cover up such a thing because they'll take wins!" nah, they'll say, "wow, if JoePa's rep couldn't make that go away, no one could--- better report it." only time will tell, bu I think th sport is worse off for having endured this ordeal and the NCAA ruling only attempts to negate JoePa's accomplishments from the record in the false belief that the good he did would overshadow the bad. JoePa's grand experiment failed when truly put a moral; no number of wins, on or off the record, I'll change that.

[logroller]

Tough to hear, but necessarily said.

Philadelphia, PA – Joe Paterno apologists, I used to be one of you. Not only did I revere the football coach from a distance, I idolized the makings of his "Grand Experiment," his morality over money moniker that made him appear so authentic and so grandfatherly.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/0...#ixzz21aAinp7t

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/0...nished-legacy/

[jimnyc]

I'm certainly not an apologist for Paterno at this point, and I won't make excuses for his part in refraining from taking further action. But at the same time, I also don't see him as a monster like Sandusky. I will still hold Joe in high esteem for his 6 decades of work & dedication, and the humanitarian work he has done, and not to mention the millions and millions he poured back into PSU to make the college a better and better place. I won't simply forget all the good he has done in his life, as a family man, a father, a coach & a mentor for so many. As a life long PSU fan, I remain grateful for the memories and am still thankful for all that Paterno did.

But in the end, none of that excuses his indecision and turning his back on what was right. No amount of bragging about his biography will somehow make what he did somehow excusable. He made an error that can't be overlooked and cannot be forgotten.

But the latter doesn't and shouldn't erase his entire life. Just as his entire life shouldn't excuse his inaction.

[Kathianne]

and why, IMO, the feeling is the 'football program' needs to be punished. It's not about the student atheletes, other than the team making money:

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/0...nished-legacy/

"This wasn't a football scandal," it bellowed. In the simplest terms, that declaration was accurate. None of the former letter-winners were, to our best estimation, privy to this massacre or assisted in its deception. But honestly, this scandal had everything to do with the university's football culture, one in which I have been an active participant since I was old enough to walk.


Parts of the letter made perfect sense -- Penn State has always been a world- class institution, and always will be. LaVar Arrington and Chuck Fusina's accomplishments shouldn't be minimalized by this horrible tragedy.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/0...#ixzz21aPtAx8R