Joe Paterno and Penn State

[Toro]

I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Paterno was fired for the coverup, wasn't he? Had he reported the act, (not covered it up), he would have still been coach and still won those games, right? So how did the coverup result in those wins?

It definitely is a football issue. They decided to cover it up because they thought it would harm the football program. Once they decided to cover it up, the cover-up allowed Paterno to keep coaching football. That's how it resulted in wins. No coach Paterno, no wins, at least for coach Paterno. So you vacate the wins. Think of vacating the wins as retroactively firing the coach. Instead of Paterno getting fired in 2011 for the cover-up, he would have been fired for the cover-up in 1998 had everyone known about it, and he would never had the chance to have won those games.

But this isn't just a football issue. Paterno was a leader on campus. We hold leaders to high standards. It's not good enough to walk a line between legal and illegal. Kids got raped. He is culpable because he allowed a rapist to remain on campus. Had he turned Sandusky in, kids wouldn't have been raped. If he hasn't committed an illegal act, he certainly committed an immoral one, one that is unacceptable for a leader of his stature. That is a fireable offense.

[Kathianne]

It definitely is a football issue. They decided to cover it up because they thought it would harm the football program. Once they decided to cover it up, the cover-up allowed Paterno to keep coaching football. That's how it resulted in wins. No coach Paterno, no wins, at least for coach Paterno. So you vacate the wins. Think of vacating the wins as retroactively firing the coach. Instead of Paterno getting fired in 2011 for the cover-up, he would have been fired for the cover-up in 1998 had everyone known about it, and he would never had the chance to have won those games.

But this isn't just a football issue. Paterno was a leader on campus. We hold leaders to high standards. It's not good enough to walk a line between legal and illegal. Kids got raped. He is culpable because he allowed a rapist to remain on campus. Had he turned Sandusky in, kids wouldn't have been raped. If he hasn't committed an illegal act, he certainly committed an immoral one, one that is unacceptable for a leader of his stature. That is a fireable offense.

It pains me to agree with Toro. Kids are being hurt and to some measure a degree from Penn State has been diminished. That was the choice though, back in 1998 when it was decided by the powers that be, to hush it. I was wrong then and today the piper is being paid.

[Toro]

It pains me to agree with Toro. Kids are being hurt and to some measure a degree from Penn State has been diminished. That was the choice though, back in 1998 when it was decided by the powers that be, to hush it. I was wrong then and today the piper is being paid.

It pains you?

lol

[Toro]

I'm certainly not an apologist for Paterno at this point, and I won't make excuses for his part in refraining from taking further action. But at the same time, I also don't see him as a monster like Sandusky. I will still hold Joe in high esteem for his 6 decades of work & dedication, and the humanitarian work he has done, and not to mention the millions and millions he poured back into PSU to make the college a better and better place. I won't simply forget all the good he has done in his life, as a family man, a father, a coach & a mentor for so many. As a life long PSU fan, I remain grateful for the memories and am still thankful for all that Paterno did.

But in the end, none of that excuses his indecision and turning his back on what was right. No amount of bragging about his biography will somehow make what he did somehow excusable. He made an error that can't be overlooked and cannot be forgotten.

But the latter doesn't and shouldn't erase his entire life. Just as his entire life shouldn't excuse his inaction.

I think as time moves on, and as emotions become less raw, we will look at his life in its entirety, and conclude that despite an extremely serious lapse in judgement, all in all, Paterno made a significant positive contribution to the university and society.

[jimnyc]

and why, IMO, the feeling is the 'football program' needs to be punished. It's not about the student atheletes, other than the team making money:

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/0...nished-legacy/

I agree with that to an extent - the students being hurt, prior, current and those just receiving scholarships, are now being punished for being at the wrong school at the wrong time. It's a fine line, but I still think it should be done as best as possible to hurt the university officials, administrators, bank accounts and individuals directly involved, and try to limit any punishment to the innocent as much as possible. What they did here, really is chump change in comparison to kids feeling like their entire football/college careers have been sullied or ruined.

[jimnyc]

I think as time moves on, and as emotions become less raw, we will look at his life in its entirety, and conclude that despite an extremely serious lapse in judgement, all in all, Paterno made a significant positive contribution to the university and society.

He'll forever be linked between the 2 now, which is why I think officials wanted to remove the statue and other signs of Joe. But as you said, I think he made some very serious contributions, which he will and should be remembered for. But he made one helluva doozy of a mistake to close out his career. So he'll forever be remembered for that too, and in many eyes, that will be the first thought when hearing his name.

[Kathianne]

To a real degree, it seems more we are speaking of a patriarch at Notre Dame than a state school. Yet, should we expect less?

[jimnyc]

And on another thought, I wonder if now at 44yrs of age if I need to find a new college team to root for? I grew up with JoePa and PSU since I was about 5-6yrs old, even though I've never been there. I did apply and was accepted to go there, but Donald Trump ignored my plea to pay the tuition costs! Shit, like $40k a year or so back in the mid 80's. But it was all about the culture of the school, the family atmosphere, the football program where education always came first, and Joe Paterno making it all happen and being the face of the team. Now Joe tumbles down. Sandusky should get the death penalty. Who knows how many others assistants knew about this, in addition to McQueary. The board of directors suck and handled things terribly, and the president and AD committed crimes. I always stand by my teams through good times and bad times. But on so many levels they have let me down and I can't see them ever being the same in my eyes.

My hidden favorite outside of that, was my home favorite growing up, Rutgers. But man, other than a few decent years, they suck most of the time. Not that I am a band wagoner and need a team that wins bowl games every year, but not a perennial loser either.

I've taken a liking to Boise State in the past 3 years, maybe 4, with Kellen Moore on the reigns there and them coming out of nowhere for a few years as a smaller school to screw up the BCS standings. Before that they were an unknown.

Then there is Pitt, which shares a lot of stuff with the Steelers, and lots of players get special attention from the Steelers due to the vicinity. But again, another team that you probably won't ever see get the championship.

I feel like watching college football was kind of ruined for me!

[Kathianne]

And on another thought, I wonder if now at 44yrs of age if I need to find a new college team to root for? I grew up with JoePa and PSU since I was about 5-6yrs old, even though I've never been there. I did apply and was accepted to go there, but Donald Trump ignored my plea to pay the tuition costs! Shit, like $40k a year or so back in the mid 80's. But it was all about the culture of the school, the family atmosphere, the football program where education always came first, and Joe Paterno making it all happen and being the face of the team. Now Joe tumbles down. Sandusky should get the death penalty. Who knows how many others assistants knew about this, in addition to McQueary. The board of directors suck and handled things terribly, and the president and AD committed crimes. I always stand by my teams through good times and bad times. But on so many levels they have let me down and I can't see them ever being the same in my eyes.

My hidden favorite outside of that, was my home favorite growing up, Rutgers. But man, other than a few decent years, they suck most of the time. Not that I am a band wagoner and need a team that wins bowl games every year, but not a perennial loser either.

I've taken a liking to Boise State in the past 3 years, maybe 4, with Kellen Moore on the reigns there and them coming out of nowhere for a few years as a smaller school to screw up the BCS standings. Before that they were an unknown.

Then there is Pitt, which shares a lot of stuff with the Steelers, and lots of players get special attention from the Steelers due to the vicinity. But again, another team that you probably won't ever see get the championship.

I feel like watching college football was kind of ruined for me!

Seriously, I feel your pain. I remember in the 70's with U of Chi being no where in sports and proud of it, I just didn't get it. Then I read some.

A hint from NW, which didn't withdraw:

http://www.northwestern.edu/about/hi...onference.html

http://www.collegian.psu.edu:8080/ar...-96m01-002.htm

It's been a balancing act for all the schools that fit sports and academics on high plane. Northwestern has had its share of winners (few) and losers, as has Harvard, Yale, etc. None though have 'succeeded' like Penn, until this fall. Seriously, should a football team or chess team be able to make this impression of an academic institution?

[jimnyc]

I just explained to my wife my dilemma and she punched me in my face! Ok, maybe she didn't, but she did get snippy with me awfully quickly! I believe the team I will be "favoring" for now, is Virginia Tech. My wife is a graduate of 1989 and I've even visited the campus a few times. The woman grew up a few hours north of Blacksburg, Va, where the school is located. And not just for her history, but it was determined about 2 weeks after my son was born that he would be going there as well. And it's still sticking and he actually does want to go to the school that his Mommy went to. And we already have a houseful of VT memorabilia, both adult and kid stuff.

I do root for them when we watch their games together, the wife and I, so it wouldn't be too hard of a stretch I suppose.

[jimnyc]

Seriously, I feel your pain. I remember in the 70's with U of Chi being no where in sports and proud of it, I just didn't get it. Then I read some.

A hint from NW, which didn't withdraw:

http://www.northwestern.edu/about/hi...onference.html

http://www.collegian.psu.edu:8080/ar...-96m01-002.htm

It's been a balancing act for all the schools that fit sports and academics on high plane. Northwestern has had its share of winners (few) and losers, as has Harvard, Yale, etc. None though have 'succeeded' like Penn, until this fall. Seriously, should a football team or chess team be able to make this impression of an academic institution?

As a sports nut, I love to see a school that consistently draw bigger and better players and produce powerhouse teams. But at the same time, I have always have mucho respect for the Ivy League schools, and teams like West Point, and the Military teams. And then you see some nerdy type schools in engineering and such, where they win a game maybe like once every 10 years!

That's one of the main reasons I always loved Penn State. They were consistently a powerhouse team, but they always had grades first and it was a first class university that allowed for the best of both worlds.

I honestly am just learning about this NW stuff, good reading!

[Kathianne]

As a sports nut, I love to see a school that consistently draw bigger and better players and produce powerhouse teams. But at the same time, I have always have mucho respect for the Ivy League schools, and teams like West Point, and the Military teams. And then you see some nerdy type schools in engineering and such, where they win a game maybe like once every 10 years!

That's one of the main reasons I always loved Penn State. They were consistently a powerhouse team, but they always had grades first and it was a first class university that allowed for the best of both worlds.

I honestly am just learning about this NW stuff, good reading!

The problem with a Penn State or (ssshhh) Notre Dame, academics isn't coming a close second. There is no second, which is what U of Chi saw as the problem. It's still true. The bigger the program, the bigger the truth.

[Toro]

And on another thought, I wonder if now at 44yrs of age if I need to find a new college team to root for? I grew up with JoePa and PSU since I was about 5-6yrs old, even though I've never been there. I did apply and was accepted to go there, but Donald Trump ignored my plea to pay the tuition costs! Shit, like $40k a year or so back in the mid 80's. But it was all about the culture of the school, the family atmosphere, the football program where education always came first, and Joe Paterno making it all happen and being the face of the team. Now Joe tumbles down. Sandusky should get the death penalty. Who knows how many others assistants knew about this, in addition to McQueary. The board of directors suck and handled things terribly, and the president and AD committed crimes. I always stand by my teams through good times and bad times. But on so many levels they have let me down and I can't see them ever being the same in my eyes.

My hidden favorite outside of that, was my home favorite growing up, Rutgers. But man, other than a few decent years, they suck most of the time. Not that I am a band wagoner and need a team that wins bowl games every year, but not a perennial loser either.

I've taken a liking to Boise State in the past 3 years, maybe 4, with Kellen Moore on the reigns there and them coming out of nowhere for a few years as a smaller school to screw up the BCS standings. Before that they were an unknown.

Then there is Pitt, which shares a lot of stuff with the Steelers, and lots of players get special attention from the Steelers due to the vicinity. But again, another team that you probably won't ever see get the championship.

I feel like watching college football was kind of ruined for me!

My father played at Boise State. Go Broncos!

As a fellow 44 year-old, my own experience is that as I get older, sports matters to me less. I still have my favourite teams, but it doesn't bother me as much as it did in the past if they lost. And it used to bother me immensely. I once put my hand through a wall when my hockey team lost. When the US beat Canada in the 1996 World Cup of hockey, I didn't sleep for two days. When my football team lost on Sunday, I'd be depressed until Tuesday. But as I got older, I realized that sports didn't really effect my life. It had nothing to do with what really mattered to me. It didn't hurt my family. It didn't effect my job. I didn't lose any friends over it. So I realized that I could have the best of both worlds. I could be happy when my team won, and when they lost, realize that it didn't effect me in any real way. Now, I find myself watching games just to enjoy the game, as opposed to rooting for one side or the other.

[Kathianne]

My father played at Boise State. Go Broncos!

As a fellow 44 year-old, my own experience is that as I get older, sports matters to me less. I still have my favourite teams, but it doesn't bother me as much as it did in the past if they lost. And it used to bother me immensely. I once put my hand through a wall when my hockey team lost. When the US beat Canada in the 1996 World Cup of hockey, I didn't sleep for two days. When my football team lost on Sunday, I'd be depressed until Tuesday. But as I got older, I realized that sports didn't really effect my life. It had nothing to do with what really mattered to me. It didn't hurt my family. It didn't effect my job. I didn't lose any friends over it. So I realized that I could have the best of both worlds. I could be happy when my team won, and when they lost, realize that it didn't effect me in any real way. Now, I find myself watching games just to enjoy the game, as opposed to rooting for one side or the other.

i hear you, competitively. I get my dander up with US News & World Reports and best colleges. Where does U of C fall? Top 10 or 20? Usually comes in top 5-8k beating NW, which is all that matters.

Actually my 'proudest moment' regarding alma maters came when my last BA school was cited for 'best bargain' for liberal arts colleges 4 or 5 years back.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandre...t-college-1676

[Kathianne]

Note were not even addressing the issues of those coming in as 'top of their class' freshmen thinking they were going to not only an elite academic institution, but a football powerhouse. Not meant to be.

http://footballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1388486&PT=4&PR=2

http://footballrecruiting.rivals.com...8486&PT=4&PR=2