Great outdoorsman the real Crocodile Dundee killed by police

[taft2012]

I appreciate the message of the Tea Party as much as anyone, but one important distinction between the Tea Party of the 18th century and today's Tea Party is critical to remember:

THESE ARE NOT LAWS BEING ENACTED BY A FOREIGN POTENTATE AND ENFORCED AT BAYONET POINT BY TROOPS SHIPPED ACROSS THE OCEAN TO OPPRESS US.

These are our laws, being passed by our duly elected representatives, Constitutionally representing our will. These laws are being enforced by our neighbors, not redcoats. Our failure to achieve desired results at the ballot box does not open the door to fire upon our neighbors.

[CSM]

I appreciate the message of the Tea Party as much as anyone, but one important distinction between the Tea Party of the 18th century and today's Tea Party is critical to remember:

THESE ARE NOT LAWS BEING ENACTED BY A FOREIGN POTENTATE AND ENFORCED AT BAYONET POINT BY TROOPS SHIPPED ACROSS THE OCEAN TO OPPRESS US.

These are our laws, being passed by our duly elected representatives, Constitutionally representing our will. These laws are being enforced by our neighbors, not redcoats. Our failure to achieve desired results at the ballot box does not open the door to fire upon our neighbors.

I would agree with you EXCEPT that in current times, our elected representatives have chosen to ignore the Constitution (never mind "the will of the people"), are more concerned with the accumulation and sustainment of power and are aggressively pursuing the elimination of individual rights. At what point then, do the citizens of this nation actively rebel, knowing that the ballot box is no longer effective and, we, as a nation, have degenerated into a country ruled by the "elite nobility". No longer is America ruled by fellow countrymen who have the best interest of the people and this nation of primary concern. Heck, one cannot even run for office unless one is wealthy because of the system put in place by the very despots who rule; aided and abetted by the media, the unions and socialists of all stripes. It is my opinion that this nation is in decline and said decline will only accelerate as we continue down the current path.

Our founding fathers believed that NO government is sacrosanct just because it is the government (duly elected or not) but that is exactly the philosophy now ingrained by many. This indoctrination has largely been fostered because of social programs which make the people dependent on that government. Unless that changes, unless you are one of the "elite nobility" then you are doomed to be a peasant entirely beholden to the ruling class.

[taft2012]

I would agree with you EXCEPT that in current times, our elected representatives have chosen to ignore the Constitution (never mind "the will of the people"), are more concerned with the accumulation and sustainment of power and are aggressively pursuing the elimination of individual rights.

That's fine.

But what sense does it make to wait until one of your neighbors shows up wearing a blue uniform, doing his job enforcing the law, and shooting *HIM*? ... all while the real culprits in your scenario are safely somewhere else enjoying the fruits of their Constitutional abuses?

If this is really how you feel, I suggest you pre-empt the above scenario and go shoot yourself a few politicians or judges. You don't have to wait for anyone to show up, there's nothing holding you back...

I'm joking of course, because I know internet balls when I see them.

So let's stop the fuckin' "I'm gonna kill me a cop" bullshit talk because somewhere, some lone crackpot reads this shit and isn't smart enough to realize it's a bunch of internet bullshit talking points, and some fine police officer somewhere may have to make the ultimate sacrifice for silly internet bloviating.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I would agree with you EXCEPT that in current times, our elected representatives have chosen to ignore the Constitution (never mind "the will of the people"), are more concerned with the accumulation and sustainment of power and are aggressively pursuing the elimination of individual rights. At what point then, do the citizens of this nation actively rebel, knowing that the ballot box is no longer effective and, we, as a nation, have degenerated into a country ruled by the "elite nobility". No longer is America ruled by fellow countrymen who have the best interest of the people and this nation of primary concern. Heck, one cannot even run for office unless one is wealthy because of the system put in place by the very despots who rule; aided and abetted by the media, the unions and socialists of all stripes. It is my opinion that this nation is in decline and said decline will only accelerate as we continue down the current path.

Our founding fathers believed that NO government is sacrosanct just because it is the government (duly elected or not) but that is exactly the philosophy now ingrained by many. This indoctrination has largely been fostered because of social programs which make the people dependent on that government. Unless that changes, unless you are one of the "elite nobility" then you are doomed to be a peasant entirely beholden to the ruling class.

Great post, I agree 100%.
Our founding fathers were indeed very, very wise men. No current government has the authority to usurp our Constitution or else we as a people ,as a nation , would have no security at all! Our Bill of Rights has been and currently is under heavy attack by a government hellbent on stripping us of our rights. This points to only one thing--Tyranny ! Jefferson had many brilliant words on what to do about such tyranny! I believe I'll side with Jefferson over any of the powermad ,sold out, corrupted politicians and government leeches of today's world! Its called standing on principle. A shame that so many Americans today never heard of that! Sold out and bleating for destruction is no way to go through life IMHO.-Tyr

[taft2012]

... and for the record, anyone who poses a threat to my life or the lives of any officers working with me with deadly physical force, during the course of us acting duly and doing our legal duties, shouldn't be surprised if they're rewarded with a consolation prize of an eternal plot of real estate like the gentleman won outside the Empire State Building yesterday.l

[taft2012]

Here is a simple question for gun owners: how many of you gun owners own licensed firearms?

If owning a firearm is a right it shouldn't be licensed then, should it? I mean, you don't have a license to come onto debatepolicy.com and use your freedom of speech, do you? Your pastor doesn't have a license to preach religion, does he? You don't need a license to go to church every Sunday, do you? The New York Times doesn't need a license to print a newspaper everyday, does it?

So if you're all truly the cop-killing desperadoes you claim to be, why do you acquiesce to this government intrusion upon your rights and allow your firearms/handguns to be registered and licensed? When you buy a gun, shouldn't you shoot the guy who hands you the registration/license form? Why wait until a cop shows up to arrest you for not having the firearm licensed/registered?

If you were a Catholic would you allow the government to account for every Communion wafer you've received? Would you sign a receipt for every newspaper you purchase for entry into a government database?

Right now the government is forcing the Catholic Church to violate its own sacred doctrines, and its barely causing a ripple in the public discourse. But merely mention the 2nd Amendment and people start frothing at the mouth that they're going to shoot their friends and neighbors.

Help me out here, what is it about the 2nd Amendment that drives otherwise normal people to the brink of insanity?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://catb.org/~esr/guns/quotes.html

Quotes on Firearms Rights
Here are some of my favorite quotes on the right to bear arms.

When only cops have guns, it's called a "police state".

Love your country, but never trust its government.

-- Robert A. Heinlein.


-- Chief Justice John Marshall, 1819.
"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action, according to our will, within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others."

-- Thomas Jefferson
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government"

-- Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"

-- George Washington
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."




"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.
"Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficient... The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding."

-- Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."

-- Barry Goldwater
"I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical."

-- Thomas Jefferson, Letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787
The people of the various provinces are strictly forbidden to have in their possession any swords, short swords, bows, spears, firearms, or other types of arms. The possession of unnecessary implements makes difficult the collection of taxes and dues and tends to foment uprisings.

-- Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Shogun, August 1588
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it."

-- Abraham Lincoln, 4 April 1861
"One of the ordinary modes, by which tyrants accomplish their purposes without resistance, is, by disarming the people, and making it an offense to keep arms."

-- Constitutional scholar Joseph Story, 1840
"The bearing of arms is the essential medium through which the individual asserts both his social power and his participation in politics as a responsible moral being..."

-- J.G.A. Pocock, describing the beliefs of the founders of the U.S.
Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest.

-- From the Declaration of the Continental Congress, July 1775.
"As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives [only] moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun, therefore, be the constant companion to your walks."

-- Thomas Jefferson, writing to his teenaged nephew.
No one is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it.

[taft2012]

Tyr, all of those quotes are fine.

What I'm asking is why do people who stand by and watch First Amendment rights trampled with only the slightest of murmurs, then threaten to kill their friends and neighbors over the 2nd Amendment, particularly when they've already allowed enormous government intrusions into that right, such as licensing and registration?

It doesn't make any sense to me.

[jafar00]

try to take my Guns....I'll take out more then one of them.....I promise you that!

Give me a high powered rifle and I could if ambushing anybody easily do away with more than one before the other reacted get him too.

hmmm... two gun nuts on a forum clearly stating that they have no problem with murdering people in cold blood. If that's not an advertisement for gun control I don't know what is. What is posted above would justify a visit from Homeland Security at least

Sounds like you would both deserve a police issue bullet to the head should you try to pull such a terrorist stunt.

[CSM]

Here is a simple question for gun owners: how many of you gun owners own licensed firearms?

If owning a firearm is a right it shouldn't be licensed then, should it? I mean, you don't have a license to come onto debatepolicy.com and use your freedom of speech, do you? Your pastor doesn't have a license to preach religion, does he? You don't need a license to go to church every Sunday, do you? The New York Times doesn't need a license to print a newspaper everyday, does it?

So if you're all truly the cop-killing desperadoes you claim to be, why do you acquiesce to this government intrusion upon your rights and allow your firearms/handguns to be registered and licensed? When you buy a gun, shouldn't you shoot the guy who hands you the registration/license form? Why wait until a cop shows up to arrest you for not having the firearm licensed/registered?

If you were a Catholic would you allow the government to account for every Communion wafer you've received? Would you sign a receipt for every newspaper you purchase for entry into a government database?

Right now the government is forcing the Catholic Church to violate its own sacred doctrines, and its barely causing a ripple in the public discourse. But merely mention the 2nd Amendment and people start frothing at the mouth that they're going to shoot their friends and neighbors.

Help me out here, what is it about the 2nd Amendment that drives otherwise normal people to the brink of insanity?

I suppose you are the only one without internet balls here. That being said, I do not care who you are, if you work for a despotic government and knowingly oppress the people you are supposedly sworn to protect then you are fair game as far as I am concerned. As for MY balls (internet or otherwise) I can only say that I have killed many men, some of whom I am sure were better men than you ever thought of being. It would be fair to say that they were doing their best to kill me at the same time.

Truthfully though, I don't think anyone here is claiming to be a "cop killing desperado" as you allege. They are merely stating that they would defend what is rightfully theirs. I presume from your posts that you are a cop or work with cops. Good on ya but if you think that makes you special you are wrong. Last time I checked most cops are subject to the same laws as the rest of us and (with the exception of the cops who work around the law ... oh I know that would NEVER happen) I have to believe that public servants like cops still have a sense of right and wrong. The days of "I was doing my duty" in perpetrating criminal acts are long gone.

Furthermore, your argument about registration of guns is exactly the thing under discussion here (in essence). The government has infringed on individual rights despite what the Constitution states under the guise of public safety. Just because the citizenry has not reacted violently to that (yet) does not mean the government is right. Eventually, when the government gets bad enough, the citizens WILL react violently. At that point, I am certain you and your gestapo like friends will be there to enforce the tyranny being imposed on you "friends and neighbors".

[taft2012]

I suppose you are the only one without internet balls here. That being said, I do not care who you are, if you work for a despotic government and knowingly oppress the people you are supposedly sworn to protect then you are fair game as far as I am concerned.

So how do you define "despotic government"? This is a democratic representative republic. Any laws or issues that are heading in any direction you do not particularly like, you have the ability to elect entire new replacement governments and turn it all around. That is what the Founders left you. Only kooks think the Founders intended for citizens to resort to firearms just because all the of powers the Founders left in the hands of the citizenry didn't happen to go in a direction they agreed with.

Just because legislation and judicial rulings happen to go against you, does not make this a "despotic government".

So you consistently fail to sell your agenda at the ballot box, so what's the obvious answer? Shoot some police officers?

You disagree with some legislation and judicial rulings, as suddenly we're a "despotic" and "oppressive" government?

I can only say that I have killed many men, some of whom I am sure were better men than you ever thought of being. It would be fair to say that they were doing their best to kill me at the same time.

And I'm sure you'll agree that one of the reasons you survived is because there were some good men around you. We got a lot of those good men too. You may have some nifty guns and a super neat-o bunker and all, and I'm sure we'll have a long discussion about it at the bar afterwards over a few beers... you won't be there of course, but we'll discuss it all the same.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

... and for the record, anyone who poses a threat to my life or the lives of any officers working with me with deadly physical force, during the course of us acting duly and doing our legal duties, shouldn't be surprised if they're rewarded with a consolation prize of an eternal plot of real estate like the gentleman won outside the Empire State Building yesterday.l

It is best not to let the government pit the police against the law abiding citizens IMHO. For doing so pits ones duty against the duty of the other. Our police are here to serve the citizenry not the illegal and tyrannical dictates of a corrupted government hell bent on taking away our Rights. Police should refuse to enforce such unlawful orders and should think of their family's future as well as this nation IMHO. Our government wanted a treaty that would authorise foreign troops coming here to enforce anti-gun laws (it has failed). Thats because they did not trust that our military would obey unlaw orders to kill our citizens over unconstitutional gun confiscation. Police should wise up that they will be forced to help destroy this nation and they should refuse. Otherwise the citizen will have no other recourse but to defend also against the police too. We as citizens should make all police officers understand this IMHO.--Tyr

[taft2012]

It is best not to let the government pit the police against the law abiding citizens IMHO. For doing so pits ones duty against the duty of the other. Our police are here to serve the citizenry not the illegal and tyrannical dictates of a corrupted government hell bent on taking away our Rights. Police should refuse to enforce such unlawful orders and should think of their family's future as well as this nation IMHO.

A citizen may be otherwise law-abiding, but if the firearm he/she possess is illegal it is my job to arrest them and confiscate the weapon. I don't get to write the laws and it is my duty to enforce them. Conservatives are rightfully all pissy about Obama deciding he's not going to enforce immigration laws, the Defense of Marriage Act, and laws against medical marijuana, yet they will turn around and tell the police to do the very same thing. Sorry, that's inconsistent and hypocritical.

Your job is to make sure the appropriate lawmakers and judges are elected. If you fail to do your job, don't expect me to half-ass my job to cover up for your failure.

And for heaven's sake, don't threaten to kill me for doing what your democratically elected government hired me to do.

[taft2012]

and Votes4Rinos, fer Chrissake...

that little dweeb is too petrified to even utter a word against an internet forum moderator for making up rules on-the-fly to retaliate against fellow conservative posters, and crawls around on the floor groveling and sniveling at their feet, ratting out conservatives to curry favor...

I'm supposed to believe HE'S suddenly going to turn into a gun-toting desperado and start shooting it out with armed police?

Please...

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I appreciate the message of the Tea Party as much as anyone, but one important distinction between the Tea Party of the 18th century and today's Tea Party is critical to remember:

THESE ARE NOT LAWS BEING ENACTED BY A FOREIGN POTENTATE AND ENFORCED AT BAYONET POINT BY TROOPS SHIPPED ACROSS THE OCEAN TO OPPRESS US.

These are our laws, being passed by our duly elected representatives, Constitutionally representing our will. These laws are being enforced by our neighbors, not redcoats. Our failure to achieve desired results at the ballot box does not open the door to fire upon our neighbors.

Our 2nd amendment can not be simply outlawed like that. Even were it actually REPEALED the principle still stands as valid as it ever was . It boils down to either we make a stand on our rights or let em be chipped away until we basicly have none IMHO. Disarmimg law abiding honest citizens point to a tyrannical government that needs to be replaced by any means that it forces to be used.--Tyr