Great outdoorsman the real Crocodile Dundee killed by police

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I would agree with you EXCEPT that in current times, our elected representatives have chosen to ignore the Constitution (never mind "the will of the people"), are more concerned with the accumulation and sustainment of power and are aggressively pursuing the elimination of individual rights. At what point then, do the citizens of this nation actively rebel, knowing that the ballot box is no longer effective and, we, as a nation, have degenerated into a country ruled by the "elite nobility". No longer is America ruled by fellow countrymen who have the best interest of the people and this nation of primary concern. Heck, one cannot even run for office unless one is wealthy because of the system put in place by the very despots who rule; aided and abetted by the media, the unions and socialists of all stripes. It is my opinion that this nation is in decline and said decline will only accelerate as we continue down the current path.

Our founding fathers believed that NO government is sacrosanct just because it is the government (duly elected or not) but that is exactly the philosophy now ingrained by many. This indoctrination has largely been fostered because of social programs which make the people dependent on that government. Unless that changes, unless you are one of the "elite nobility" then you are doomed to be a peasant entirely beholden to the ruling class.

Great post, I agree 100%.
Our founding fathers were indeed very, very wise men. No current government has the authority to usurp our Constitution or else we as a people ,as a nation , would have no security at all! Our Bill of Rights has been and currently is under heavy attack by a government hellbent on stripping us of our rights. This points to only one thing--Tyranny ! Jefferson had many brilliant words on what to do about such tyranny! I believe I'll side with Jefferson over any of the powermad ,sold out, corrupted politicians and government leeches of today's world! Its called standing on principle. A shame that so many Americans today never heard of that! Sold out and bleating for destruction is no way to go through life IMHO.-Tyr

[taft2012]

... and for the record, anyone who poses a threat to my life or the lives of any officers working with me with deadly physical force, during the course of us acting duly and doing our legal duties, shouldn't be surprised if they're rewarded with a consolation prize of an eternal plot of real estate like the gentleman won outside the Empire State Building yesterday.l

[taft2012]

Here is a simple question for gun owners: how many of you gun owners own licensed firearms?

If owning a firearm is a right it shouldn't be licensed then, should it? I mean, you don't have a license to come onto debatepolicy.com and use your freedom of speech, do you? Your pastor doesn't have a license to preach religion, does he? You don't need a license to go to church every Sunday, do you? The New York Times doesn't need a license to print a newspaper everyday, does it?

So if you're all truly the cop-killing desperadoes you claim to be, why do you acquiesce to this government intrusion upon your rights and allow your firearms/handguns to be registered and licensed? When you buy a gun, shouldn't you shoot the guy who hands you the registration/license form? Why wait until a cop shows up to arrest you for not having the firearm licensed/registered?

If you were a Catholic would you allow the government to account for every Communion wafer you've received? Would you sign a receipt for every newspaper you purchase for entry into a government database?

Right now the government is forcing the Catholic Church to violate its own sacred doctrines, and its barely causing a ripple in the public discourse. But merely mention the 2nd Amendment and people start frothing at the mouth that they're going to shoot their friends and neighbors.

Help me out here, what is it about the 2nd Amendment that drives otherwise normal people to the brink of insanity?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://catb.org/~esr/guns/quotes.html

Quotes on Firearms Rights
Here are some of my favorite quotes on the right to bear arms.

When only cops have guns, it's called a "police state".

Love your country, but never trust its government.

-- Robert A. Heinlein.


-- Chief Justice John Marshall, 1819.
"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action, according to our will, within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others."

-- Thomas Jefferson
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government"

-- Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"

-- George Washington
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."




"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.
"Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficient... The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding."

-- Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."

-- Barry Goldwater
"I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical."

-- Thomas Jefferson, Letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787
The people of the various provinces are strictly forbidden to have in their possession any swords, short swords, bows, spears, firearms, or other types of arms. The possession of unnecessary implements makes difficult the collection of taxes and dues and tends to foment uprisings.

-- Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Shogun, August 1588
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it."

-- Abraham Lincoln, 4 April 1861
"One of the ordinary modes, by which tyrants accomplish their purposes without resistance, is, by disarming the people, and making it an offense to keep arms."

-- Constitutional scholar Joseph Story, 1840
"The bearing of arms is the essential medium through which the individual asserts both his social power and his participation in politics as a responsible moral being..."

-- J.G.A. Pocock, describing the beliefs of the founders of the U.S.
Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest.

-- From the Declaration of the Continental Congress, July 1775.
"As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives [only] moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun, therefore, be the constant companion to your walks."

-- Thomas Jefferson, writing to his teenaged nephew.
No one is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it.

[taft2012]

Tyr, all of those quotes are fine.

What I'm asking is why do people who stand by and watch First Amendment rights trampled with only the slightest of murmurs, then threaten to kill their friends and neighbors over the 2nd Amendment, particularly when they've already allowed enormous government intrusions into that right, such as licensing and registration?

It doesn't make any sense to me.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Tyr, all of those quotes are fine.

What I'm asking is why do people who stand by and watch First Amendment rights trampled with only the slightest of murmurs, then threaten to kill their friends and neighbors over the 2nd Amendment, particularly when they've already allowed enormous government intrusions into that right, such as licensing and registration?

It doesn't make any sense to me.

I share your confusion . They should be hellbent against any of our rights being trampled upon as they are being now. Those intrusions fall, short of confiscation and maybe thats why they were allowed, this has been a long process which has been designed to gain eventually success by degrees. We should have stood firm many decades ago! But we failed to see the eventual goal as was the plan.
It doesnt make sense except that people are reluctant to fight unless severely provoked. Government knows this and have taken the long slow approach by design.
We should all urge our police officers to consider this coming divisive agenda and refuse to go along with it. I think many police have already made that decision although they do not announce it openly. I know my nephew did while he was still a police officer. He flat out stated should they order him to confiscate law abiding citizen's guns he would toss the badge in their damn faces and tell them to kiss his ass! Looks like my sis raised that boy right!--Tyr

[CSM]

Tyr, all of those quotes are fine.

What I'm asking is why do people who stand by and watch First Amendment rights trampled with only the slightest of murmurs, then threaten to kill their friends and neighbors over the 2nd Amendment, particularly when they've already allowed enormous government intrusions into that right, such as licensing and registration?

It doesn't make any sense to me.

I guess you highlight part of the problem. Many people simply do not care what legislation is passed particularly if it does not affect them directly.

As for threatening "friends and neighbors", as you say, some of that it is pure internet balls (as you put it). However, there are some out there who really do know how to engage with deadly force (not solitary nut cases, survivalists, etc either) and are willing to do so if the situation is dire enough. Don't forget, some of our founding fathers were willing to sacrifice their lively hood, property and very lives in the fight against tyranny and yes, they were willing to engage and kill their friends and neighbors to do so. It is true that there is a definite lack of "balls" of any kind among the populace should the need arise again. Hopefully, the ballot box will prove to be as powerfull as it once was.

[jafar00]

try to take my Guns....I'll take out more then one of them.....I promise you that!

Give me a high powered rifle and I could if ambushing anybody easily do away with more than one before the other reacted get him too.

hmmm... two gun nuts on a forum clearly stating that they have no problem with murdering people in cold blood. If that's not an advertisement for gun control I don't know what is. What is posted above would justify a visit from Homeland Security at least

Sounds like you would both deserve a police issue bullet to the head should you try to pull such a terrorist stunt.

[jimnyc]

hmmm... two gun nuts on a forum clearly stating that they have no problem with murdering people in cold blood. If that's not an advertisement for gun control I don't know what is. What is posted above would justify a visit from Homeland Security at least

Sounds like you would both deserve a police issue bullet to the head should you try to pull such a terrorist stunt.

They were speaking of defending their 2nd amendment right. They are hardly the first and won't be the last, to say that they will fight to protect their constitutional right, up to an including force if necessary. We believe dearly in our long standing constitution and it IS something worth fighting over if it ever came to that. I don't think anyone truly wants to go out, proactively, and willy nilly shoot people in case they want to limit their rights. I think what they mean is that they will not give in if asked to relinquish their firearms, at any cost, and would fight back if anyone tried to use any type of force to take them away.

People tend to get a little excited in the way they express themselves regarding this subject. But a peek around the nation will show you that no one is running around like cowboys and shooting the police so that they don't take their guns. I agree that the way one expresses their desire to protect their COTUS rights should be a little more tempered.

But sorry, if it ever did come to that, our government going around trying to take away guns and ignore our 2nd amendment rights, anyone protecting those rights would not be a terrorist.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

hmmm... two gun nuts on a forum clearly stating that they have no problem with murdering people in cold blood. If that's not an advertisement for gun control I don't know what is. What is posted above would justify a visit from Homeland Security at least

Sounds like you would both deserve a police issue bullet to the head should you try to pull such a terrorist stunt.

It is an honor to be called a gun nut by the likes of you. Get in line reporting me to Homeland Security. We patriots are reported everyday for our posts and sometimes hourly.
Now American citizens vowing to uphold the Constitution here are terrorists according to you but your camelrug buddies that are actually murdering innocent women and children are heroes, great Jihad warriors or else non-muslim thugs ! You live in a lying ffkk up world bozo. One your kind will not impose on me or mine. I'll be happy to see to that! Now be sure to spell my name right when you report me , you ffing muslim snitch. And tell them I also said -ffkk- them too, they are just government scabs for the most part IMHO. NEED ANYMORE EVIDENCE ON ME JUST PM ME AND I'll speak even more bluntly about them and the damn muslim murdering graven cowardly scum too! Send the damn pm , I dont lie. -Tyr

[jafar00]

It is an honor to be called a gun nut by the likes of you. Get in line reporting me to Homeland Security. We patriots are reported everyday for our posts and sometimes hourly.
Now American citizens vowing to uphold the Constitution here are terrorists according to you but your camelrug buddies that are actually murdering innocent women and children are heroes, great Jihad warriors or else non-muslim thugs ! You live in a lying ffkk up world bozo. One your kind will not impose on me or mine. I'll be happy to see to that! Now be sure to spell my name right when you report me , you ffing muslim snitch. And tell them I also said -ffkk- them too, they are just government scabs for the most part IMHO. NEED ANYMORE EVIDENCE ON ME JUST PM ME AND I'll speak even more bluntly about them and the damn muslim murdering graven cowardly scum too! Send the damn pm , I dont lie. -Tyr

If I the guy deciding on whether you would get a license or not, these kind of tyrades would put you in the no pile. Too unstable and unpredictable to own a firearm.

[CSM]

Here is a simple question for gun owners: how many of you gun owners own licensed firearms?

If owning a firearm is a right it shouldn't be licensed then, should it? I mean, you don't have a license to come onto debatepolicy.com and use your freedom of speech, do you? Your pastor doesn't have a license to preach religion, does he? You don't need a license to go to church every Sunday, do you? The New York Times doesn't need a license to print a newspaper everyday, does it?

So if you're all truly the cop-killing desperadoes you claim to be, why do you acquiesce to this government intrusion upon your rights and allow your firearms/handguns to be registered and licensed? When you buy a gun, shouldn't you shoot the guy who hands you the registration/license form? Why wait until a cop shows up to arrest you for not having the firearm licensed/registered?

If you were a Catholic would you allow the government to account for every Communion wafer you've received? Would you sign a receipt for every newspaper you purchase for entry into a government database?

Right now the government is forcing the Catholic Church to violate its own sacred doctrines, and its barely causing a ripple in the public discourse. But merely mention the 2nd Amendment and people start frothing at the mouth that they're going to shoot their friends and neighbors.

Help me out here, what is it about the 2nd Amendment that drives otherwise normal people to the brink of insanity?

I suppose you are the only one without internet balls here. That being said, I do not care who you are, if you work for a despotic government and knowingly oppress the people you are supposedly sworn to protect then you are fair game as far as I am concerned. As for MY balls (internet or otherwise) I can only say that I have killed many men, some of whom I am sure were better men than you ever thought of being. It would be fair to say that they were doing their best to kill me at the same time.

Truthfully though, I don't think anyone here is claiming to be a "cop killing desperado" as you allege. They are merely stating that they would defend what is rightfully theirs. I presume from your posts that you are a cop or work with cops. Good on ya but if you think that makes you special you are wrong. Last time I checked most cops are subject to the same laws as the rest of us and (with the exception of the cops who work around the law ... oh I know that would NEVER happen) I have to believe that public servants like cops still have a sense of right and wrong. The days of "I was doing my duty" in perpetrating criminal acts are long gone.

Furthermore, your argument about registration of guns is exactly the thing under discussion here (in essence). The government has infringed on individual rights despite what the Constitution states under the guise of public safety. Just because the citizenry has not reacted violently to that (yet) does not mean the government is right. Eventually, when the government gets bad enough, the citizens WILL react violently. At that point, I am certain you and your gestapo like friends will be there to enforce the tyranny being imposed on you "friends and neighbors".

[taft2012]

I suppose you are the only one without internet balls here. That being said, I do not care who you are, if you work for a despotic government and knowingly oppress the people you are supposedly sworn to protect then you are fair game as far as I am concerned.

So how do you define "despotic government"? This is a democratic representative republic. Any laws or issues that are heading in any direction you do not particularly like, you have the ability to elect entire new replacement governments and turn it all around. That is what the Founders left you. Only kooks think the Founders intended for citizens to resort to firearms just because all the of powers the Founders left in the hands of the citizenry didn't happen to go in a direction they agreed with.

Just because legislation and judicial rulings happen to go against you, does not make this a "despotic government".

So you consistently fail to sell your agenda at the ballot box, so what's the obvious answer? Shoot some police officers?

You disagree with some legislation and judicial rulings, as suddenly we're a "despotic" and "oppressive" government?

I can only say that I have killed many men, some of whom I am sure were better men than you ever thought of being. It would be fair to say that they were doing their best to kill me at the same time.

And I'm sure you'll agree that one of the reasons you survived is because there were some good men around you. We got a lot of those good men too. You may have some nifty guns and a super neat-o bunker and all, and I'm sure we'll have a long discussion about it at the bar afterwards over a few beers... you won't be there of course, but we'll discuss it all the same.

[CSM]

So how do you define "despotic government"? This is a democratic representative republic. Any laws or issues that are heading in any direction you do not particularly like, you have the ability to elect entire new replacement governments and turn it all around. That is what the Founders left you. Only kooks think the Founders intended for citizens to resort to firearms just because all the of powers the Founders left in the hands of the citizenry didn't happen to go in a direction they agreed with.

Just because legislation and judicial rulings happen to go against you, does not make this a "despotic government".

So you consistently fail to sell your agenda at the ballot box, so what's the obvious answer? Shoot some police officers?

You disagree with some legislation and judicial rulings, as suddenly we're a "despotic" and "oppressive" government?



And I'm sure you'll agree that one of the reasons you survived is because there were some good men around you. We got a lot of those good men too. You may have some nifty guns and a super neat-o bunker and all, and I'm sure we'll have a long discussion about it at the bar afterwards over a few beers... you won't be there of course, but we'll discuss it all the same.

Pure internet balls on display again. I knew you had some.

You are deflecting. You know darn well what I am saying. I am not talking about "some" legislation I disagree with and you know it. You can denigrate all you want and heck you might even believe what you are saying. Hitler relied on men like you. "Go round up the Jews and kill them all; it's the law!" I bet you think it can't happen in this country. Native Americans were rounded up and put on reservations ... it was the LAW. American citizens of Japanese decent were rounded up and place in internment camps ... it was the LAW. Veterans of this country's military were fired upon and killed by the government ... it was the LAW. I know all you cops are big bad asses but I happen to know that cops bleed and die just like everyone else.

The bottom line is I and the other posters in opposition to your Nazi philosophy DO respect the law. We do vote. We also pay your salary (or some of us do assuming you are indeed a public servant). All we are saying is that when our duly elected representatives turn into tyrannical despots and ignore the very laws that frame this country, begin oppressing the citizens as a result and send out little storm troopers like you to beat (and shoot) the people into submission, then there will be opposition. Do your duty indeed but be prepared to accept the ramifications.

I have no doubt there will be long discussions in the bar after such a confrontation. SOME of you will discuss it but assuredly not all of you. Pelosi was partially right; veterans are a threat to the country. They are a threat to a country as she and her ilk envision it; a tyrannical state run by an elite class with little flying monkeys like you to run around trying to enforce that tyranny. What really makes veterans so dangerous to her and people like you is that veterans (especially combat veterans) are not afraid to stand up and fight. Cops like you rely on the fact that most people will not.

I have no bunker; I don't need one. I have plenty of brothers in arms though who are ready willing and able to take on the flying monkeys and their leash holders.

[taft2012]

Hitler relied on men like you. "Go round up the Jews and kill them all; it's the law!"

No, he relied upon people like you who see wrong and do nothing about it except piss and moan on the internet.

The difference being between Hitler and the United States of America; WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THE GOVERNMENT AT THE BALLOT BOX.

I realize it is convenient for you to ignore that little factoid.

The simple truth is; the government we have is the one we selected. Do I agree with it all of the time? Hell no, in fact most of the time I disagree with it. That doesn't mean they are oppressive Nazis and that I have go out and start shooting people. That just means that I, and my fellow patriots at the local level, have to start getting our message out better.

The bottom line is I and the other posters in opposition to your Nazi philosophy DO respect the law. We do vote.

So did Hitler and the Nazis. And when they had trouble getting everything exactly the way they wanted it through democratic means, they burned down the Reichstag and picked up weapons.

So in a comparison of you and me; which one sounds more like Hitler when the democratic process fails to delivery everything precisely the way he personally wants it? You or me?