Requirements to be a Christian

[revelarts]

Noir you points about "religion" characterizing people as weak, sick and sinful needing help is somewhat correct.
The question is whether it's true or false. You seem to say you don't like it. heck I don't like it, but it doesn't mean it's not true.
You say lust is really not bad "unless it goes to far"
greed is really not bad "unless it goes to far"
and MOST people don't go to far.

Can you say that there are very many people that in your view at one time or another have gone too far is some moral issue.
Have you done things that's you've genuinely should have apologize for, because you've done it out of selfish anger? Have you stolen anything?

I'm not trying to guilt you, seriously. it's just that most people will admit that they have not lived everyday full of love and righteousness. Or even lived up our own skewed personal standards of right and wrong.
Even our own conscious's tells just we're wrong. Without having much in the way of "religious" teaching.
Something is set in us as little children that says "that's not fair", "that's not right", "that's not nice" "i'm sorry".

Why aren't we "fair" because we are NOT weak?
why aren't we "right" because we are NOT sick?
Why aren't we "nice" because we are NOT sinners?


you may not like "religions" codification of morals and plain speak about right and wrong but you can't honestly say that people are naturally always good, kind and moral by default. i think we all know that religious and Non religious people COULD be better. And it would be GREAT if we all lived up to what we know is right and good. But we don't. So we have contracts and laws and locked doors on our houses and cars and bikes, politicians lie, companies lie, preachers cheat on their wives, moral atheist cheat on their wives, people cheat from their jobs, kids steal money from grandma, Neighbors play music much louder than they know their neighbors want to hear, we fight animals for sport, we excuse/justify our faults and demand blood from others for theirs, we pass by people in need everyday and don't help, and often don't even grant small acts of kindness to others etc etc etc

I could list plenty more, so i'd say the fact that we do not live up to what we all know is right and good is proof of our weakness.
If we go farther than most that it shows we are morally sick.
Either or shows we are sinners.

But maybe your the 2nd exception.

[gabosaurus]

Brings me back to the abuse of my childhood.

They abused little girls? I thought it was just boys.

[tailfins]

some christians sure seem like arrogant pricks. Everyone probably knows the type -

Christianity is nothing anyone can claim or proclaim - it's only defined by one's actions-driven-by-attitude. Sorta like homosexuality - or any other behaviour-based label. We are what we do; or, actually, what we do defines who we are.

Do you love people? I mean really love them in a pure and true sense? If so, you're following Christ. Do you berate those who bother you? Maybe you aren't as christian as you proclaim - nor as enlightened?

There seems to be a higher concentration of that type South of the Mason-Dixon line. Moving to New England probably saved my faith. I wonder if I can even bring myself to visit a church when visiting down South.

[DragonStryk72]

You are taught (and seemingly teach) that lust etc is an excessive feeling.

Finding someone sexually attractive does not make you sick.

Finding someone sexually attractive to the point that you'd rape them, does.

Yes, just like some anger is okay, as is some pride, but Christianity doesn't require anyone give those up entirely. Yes, no murdering people, just don't do it. And no fantasizing about nailing your's neighbor's wife, or taking his shit. Pretty much everything else falls under "It would be wonderful to avoid them, but let's be honest, we know you're going to screw up at some point, so we've also laid out a basic framework for forgiveness."

When the 7 deadly sins come up, people make the mistake of believing that Christianity believes that you cannot show any of them at all in any way. This is incorrect. When the bible talks about Lust as a cardinal sin, it's talking about your second example, not the first one.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

There seems to be a higher concentration of that type South of the Mason-Dixon line.....

Yes, ALL Southerners are redneck sinners that fall far short of the magnificence that you are gifted with. The devil really does live in Georgia. Your bias clearly puts you into the arrogant crowd that lusts in its own supposed magnificent status , absolutely convinced that you are superior to Southern bible thumpers. Pat yourself on the back some more while gloating in your imagined arrogance. Im starting to get a kick out of reading your flattering self-praising.--Tyr

[tailfins]

Yes, ALL Southerners are redneck sinners that fall far short of the magnificence that you are gifted with. The devil really does live in Georgia. Your bias clearly puts you into the arrogant crowd that lusts in its own supposed magnificent status , absolutely convinced that you are superior to Southern bible thumpers. Pat yourself on the back some more while gloating in your imagined arrogance. Im starting to get a kick out of reading your flattering self-praising.--Tyr

They fall short of common decency.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

They fall short of common decency.

Well ,why complain here ? Go back there and complain to your indecent friends and relatives..-Tyr

[avatar4321]

Exactly. I think back to this phrase quite often:

Judge not, that ye be not judged

Meaning: Do not judge others if you do not want to be judged by others. Only God can judge. And we will eventually judge everyone.
Do not judge by skin color, ethnic heritage, religious preference, sexual preference or physical stature before you judge yourself to be without sin. Let God be the judge of all his people. It is not your place.

That is one of the most misunderstood and misquoted scriptures.

John 7:24 provides context:

"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

Christ wasn't telling us not to judge. He was telling us how to judge.

[darin]

That is one of the most misunderstood and misquoted scriptures.

John 7:24 provides context:

"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

Christ wasn't telling us not to judge. He was telling us how to judge.

Bingo.


Judging has nothing to do with love, ultimately - of course, our judgments will be based from Love - but they are not 'either-or'

[taft2012]

And what about your average, non-raping, non-alcholholic, non-murdering human. Are they sick too?

What criteria would you use to convince raping murdering alcoholics that their lifestyle is evil?

In fact, how would you first define "evil" to them?

[tailfins]

Well ,why complain here ? Go back there and complain to your indecent friends and relatives..-Tyr

Those kind of friends? I don't think so. Relatives? Those kind already know they'd be hauled away in handcuffs if they ever darken my doorstep, which isn't an issue being that those relatives wouldn't be caught dead in New England.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

That is one of the most misunderstood and misquoted scriptures.

John 7:24 provides context:

"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

Christ wasn't telling us not to judge. He was telling us how to judge.

Exactly, one must make judgements all the time. Evil presents itself(Satan) constantly and Christians must make the judgement to either partake in it or not! Temptation for the lusts of the flesh being a primary offering =prostitution, adultery, etc.. The world is all about sin and Christians have to judge how to both be and act Christlike..
Judging is a part of life..-Tyr

[Noir]

What criteria would you use to convince raping murdering alcoholics that their lifestyle is evil?

In fact, how would you first define "evil" to them?

By the criteria that they are destroying other people's lives.

Things like 'good' and 'evil' are ofcourse subjective, and require intense debate, discussion, and thought, to reach a consensus.

[Noir]

When the 7 deadly sins come up, people make the mistake of believing that Christianity believes that you cannot show any of them at all in any way. This is incorrect. When the bible talks about Lust as a cardinal sin, it's talking about your second example, not the first one.

My point is that you're taught that these perfectly natural feelings are what make you sick.

Am I to have it right that you are saying that not all lust is sinful, only some types of lust?

[Noir]

Noir you points about "religion" characterizing people as weak, sick and sinful needing help is somewhat correct.
The question is whether it's true or false. You seem to say you don't like it. heck I don't like it, but it doesn't mean it's not true.
You say lust is really not bad "unless it goes to far"
greed is really not bad "unless it goes to far"
and MOST people don't go to far.

Can you say that there are very many people that in your view at one time or another have gone too far is some moral issue.
Have you done things that's you've genuinely should have apologize for, because you've done it out of selfish anger? Have you stolen anything?

I'm not trying to guilt you, seriously. it's just that most people will admit that they have not lived everyday full of love and righteousness. Or even lived up our own skewed personal standards of right and wrong.
Even our own conscious's tells just we're wrong. Without having much in the way of "religious" teaching.
Something is set in us as little children that says "that's not fair", "that's not right", "that's not nice" "i'm sorry".

Why aren't we "fair" because we are NOT weak?
why aren't we "right" because we are NOT sick?
Why aren't we "nice" because we are NOT sinners?

you may not like "religions" codification of morals and plain speak about right and wrong but you can't honestly say that people are naturally always good, kind and moral by default. i think we all know that religious and Non religious people COULD be better. And it would be GREAT if we all lived up to what we know is right and good. But we don't. So we have contracts and laws and locked doors on our houses and cars and bikes, politicians lie, companies lie, preachers cheat on their wives, moral atheist cheat on their wives, people cheat from their jobs, kids steal money from grandma, Neighbors play music much louder than they know their neighbors want to hear, we fight animals for sport, we excuse/justify our faults and demand blood from others for theirs, we pass by people in need everyday and don't help, and often don't even grant small acts of kindness to others etc etc etc

I could list plenty more, so i'd say the fact that we do not live up to what we all know is right and good is proof of our weakness.
If we go farther than most that it shows we are morally sick.
Either or shows we are sinners.

But maybe your the 2nd exception.

Except according to most religions I have gone too far, far too far, simply by existing. And (using most Christian religions as an example) unless I seek forgiveness for existing, then I deserve the eternity in hell that's waiting for me in a few years.

That is a moral problem, and ofcourse whether of not its disagreeable doesn't alter the fact of whether of not that is how we are judged, it is nevertheless obviously flawed.