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  1. #1
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    Default $250k, Why Worry About Those Tax Increases?

    May be more than you think:

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...proposals.html

    Should People Who Make $250,000 a Year Worry About Obama's Tax Proposals?

    by Megan McArdle <time class="timestamp" property="dc:created" datetime="2012-11-20T16:51:00.000Z" pubdate="pubdate">Nov 20, 2012 11:51 AM EST

    </time>Kevin Drum and Dave Weigel take off after rich people who don't understand that they only pay marginal tax rates on the extra dollars they earn above taxation thresholds. "This isn't true, of course. Obama is only proposing to raise tax rates on income over $250,000, so if your income goes up to $251,000, you only pay the higher rate on the extra $1,000. The tax bill on your first $250,000 stays exactly the same."

    Their analysis is basically sound, except for the fact that it is not quite true. They have forgotten to look at deduction phaseouts, surtaxes, and the AMT, which are not taxes on marginal income.*

    No matter what you have heard on the internet, there are in fact a lot of sizeable marginal inflection points for high earners. There are the Pease deduction phaseouts, temporarily abated by the Bush tax cuts but scheduled to go back into effect in 2013, which can eliminate up to 80% of deductions for couples who make more than about $175,000 (the number is indexed for inflation, so it changes every year): your deductions are reduced by 3% of the amount by which your income exceeds the threshhold. The student loan interest deduction phases out at $150,000 ($75,000 for singles). And a lot of tax-free savings opportunities disappear:

    educational savings accounts and IRAs have income limits, so your ability to use them starts phasing out in the low-six-figure income range. So do various educational and child tax credits. These things obviously aren't a huge deal for people who make $1,000,000 a year but they can be a huge tax hit for couples in the $150,000 to $300,000 range. Come 2013, they will be an even bigger hit.


    And we haven't even discussed the AMT, which virtually eliminates deductions for couples who make the mistake of doing things like buying a house, having children, or living in a high tax state.

    To be sure, there are a bunch of people who confuse marginal with effective tax rates, and their error should be gently pointed out. But it is hard to correct the errors of others while simultaneously making a fairly sizeable error of your own. So I've put together a handy graphic showing you what income levels trigger deduction phaseouts or surtaxes. The red line shows you where the phaseout is complete--i.e., where the deduction completely disappears.

    <figure class="multimedia section"> <figcaption class="figcaption"> </figcaption> </figure> So for example, a married couple filing jointly in 2013 with two kids at home and one in college who go from making $100,000 to $125,000 loses a $2,000 child tax credit and $1800 worth of HOPE credit, an increase of almost 4% in their effective--not marginal--tax rate. The marginal tax rate on their extra earnings is 15.2% just from deduction losses; that comes on top of the 28% they'll be paying the federal government in income taxes, and whatever state income tax they owe.

    A couple who goes from $150,000 to $185,000 loses tuition deductibility and the ability to contribute to an IRA. They also become eligible for the AMT, and if they aren't hit by the AMT, they will get hit by the Pease deduction phaseout. (If they're filing in 2012, they don't get hit by the deduction phaseout, but do lose the Opportunity Tax Credit, to the tune of $2500). Exactly how much they lose will depend on their deductions, but it's thousands of dollars, representing a substantial increase in their effective--again, not their marginal--tax rate. And if the Bush tax cuts expire, they'll also be facing a 3% tax hike on about half of their annual income, another effective increase of 1.5%.

    A couple that goes from $180,000 to $251,000, meanwhile, loses access to Coverdell Education Savings Accounts and the adoption tax credit, loses $2250 worth of deductions under the Pease rules, almost certainly pays AMT, and has any investment income hit with a 3.8% surtax. Under Obama's plan, it's true that the top marginal tax rate will only affect about $1,000 worth of their income. But the other tax law changes that have occurred (or will) under his administration make for a sizeable increase in their overall tax burden. At the margin, this couple is probably better off earning the extra money. But there will couples who will not be--and a number of couples who will have to think hard about whether it wouldn't be better to cut back on the high-stress job.

    This is not necessarily an argument against increasing those taxes; I favor letting all the Bush tax rates expire because we don't seem to have any plans to cut spending to match the revenue that those tax rates bring in. But it isn't true that this is simply trivial for all but the superrich.

    Indeed, this graph really should include the EITC, which as I've written elsewhere, effectively creates a high marginal tax rate for the poor. But the phaseout is calculated based on the number of children you have, which means that there's no way to cleanly display it on the same graph as everything else. Anyway, just keep in mind that there's a big tax hit for poor people who make more money, too.


    * This article originally contained an example about the 3.8% investment surtax which was incorrect, so I've removed it. I misread a source, and thought that the investment surtax applied to all investment income, when actually there's a fairly complicated formula that should keep this from happening. I apologize for the error.



    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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    IMO. All of this boils down to one, very simple aspect of American life.

    Those who call themselves "The HAVE NOT'S" are basically Jealous of the "HAVE'S".

    Take away the HAVE'S, and guess what kind of country you end up with?

    (Hint... CLASS WARFARE)

    Anyone care to expound, or provide an Honest answer?
    Last edited by aboutime; 11-22-2012 at 02:05 PM.
    I love to make Liberals Cry, and Whine.
    So, this is for them.
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    There are options. I wonder how exercising these options affects the economy. I get paid by the hour and risk hitting some of these income limits. It reaches a point where taking off a month or two becomes much less costly because of the higher taxes.

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    So why does none of the supposed "increase" affect my families tax? I know why because I planned ahead!
    A chance for a new beginning, like a dawn of reconciliation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by April15 View Post
    So why does none of the supposed "increase" affect my families tax? I know why because I planned ahead!
    Wow, a blast from the past. Glad to see you back at DP! Would you like a cookie now? LOL

    Just busting chops.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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    Quote Originally Posted by April15 View Post
    So why does none of the supposed "increase" affect my families tax? I know why because I planned ahead!

    Good for you. Welcome to the Individual Responsibility Club April15.

    Sadly. Far too many uninformed, even uneducated Americans have little, if any idea how, or what they can do to avoid that "CLIFF" Obama and the members of Congress keep warning us about.

    Planning ahead isn't natural for most. We know. A larger majority of Americans, from all of the Classes, Rich, Middle, and Poor only live day to day, week to week, and month to month.

    If January 1st arrives and Obama with Congress have not rectified the Looming Tax Increases.

    We are going to see an America we never wanted to see. Up close, and Personal.
    I love to make Liberals Cry, and Whine.
    So, this is for them.
    GOD BLESS AMERICA - IN GOD WE TRUST !

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    Quote Originally Posted by aboutime View Post
    Good for you. Welcome to the Individual Responsibility Club April15.

    Sadly. Far too many uninformed, even uneducated Americans have little, if any idea how, or what they can do to avoid that "CLIFF" Obama and the members of Congress keep warning us about.

    Planning ahead isn't natural for most. We know. A larger majority of Americans, from all of the Classes, Rich, Middle, and Poor only live day to day, week to week, and month to month.

    If January 1st arrives and Obama with Congress have not rectified the Looming Tax Increases.

    We are going to see an America we never wanted to see. Up close, and Personal.
    The ending of the unwise tax cut is long over due. The nation needs it, the end of it, to be financially prudent. I am glad that the interest on our debt is .009% which is just about nothing.
    A chance for a new beginning, like a dawn of reconciliation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by April15 View Post
    The ending of the unwise tax cut is long over due. The nation needs it, the end of it, to be financially prudent. I am glad that the interest on our debt is .009% which is just about nothing.
    The debt itself over 16 trillion is not nothing though. I'd rather 6 trillion wasn't spent in the past 4 years, and then end up worse off economically for that trouble!
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimnyc View Post
    The debt itself over 16 trillion is not nothing though. I'd rather 6 trillion wasn't spent in the past 4 years, and then end up worse off economically for that trouble!
    I wish we hadn't either but a full blown depression would have us speaking Chinese right now.
    A chance for a new beginning, like a dawn of reconciliation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by April15 View Post
    I wish we hadn't either but a full blown depression would have us speaking Chinese right now.
    Not handing out welfare and other goodies and bailing out private corporations, would not have put us in a full blown depression. And the bailouts and handouts did nothing at all to prevent a damn thing. The rate of decline of our economy has steadily went downhill. Congress spending what they don't have, year after year after year is what put us in this position. It's real simple - stop all the wasteful spending. That's the only thing that will stop the debt and slowly revive the economy, that and lower taxes and rates. Increasing taxes on the rich will only have them pass it down, just as Obamacare will be passed down to employees and consumers.
    “You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named "Bush", "Dick", and "Colin." Need I say more?” - Chris Rock

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    Quote Originally Posted by April15 View Post
    I wish we hadn't either but a full blown depression would have us speaking Chinese right now.
    I don't know about speaking Chinese, but my opinion of Obama voters are a bunch of people that were "Turning Japanese" on election day. Pay careful attention to the below music video if you don't know what I'm talking about.


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    Tailfins i do not have sound.
    A chance for a new beginning, like a dawn of reconciliation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by April15 View Post
    The ending of the unwise tax cut is long over due. The nation needs it, the end of it, to be financially prudent. I am glad that the interest on our debt is .009% which is just about nothing.
    So citizens should pay higher taxes...

    Quote Originally Posted by April15 View Post
    So why does none of the supposed "increase" affect my families tax? I know why because I planned ahead!
    But proper planning ensures that no one would pay higher taxes... Thanks for the lesson in why rates have nothing to do with revenues.

    Quote Originally Posted by April15 View Post
    I wish we hadn't either but a full blown depression would have us speaking Chinese right now.
    Considering that excessive government intervention in economic decision making is what causes depressions... it's amazing we aren't in one.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
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    Quote Originally Posted by April15 View Post
    The ending of the unwise tax cut is long over due. The nation needs it, the end of it, to be financially prudent. I am glad that the interest on our debt is .009% which is just about nothing.

    Gotta disagree with you April. Allowing taxes to increase for anybody, like they will in January if nothing is done to stop them. Will only bring more of a recession, more unemployment, and less investment in the economy by the People themselves.

    If you are not working, not earning a paycheck, and dependent upon govt. Nothing improves, but we all, eventually become More broke than we are now.

    We cannot afford to borrow any more.
    I love to make Liberals Cry, and Whine.
    So, this is for them.
    GOD BLESS AMERICA - IN GOD WE TRUST !

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    So citizens should pay higher taxes...



    But proper planning ensures that no one would pay higher taxes... Thanks for the lesson in why rates have nothing to do with revenues.



    Considering that excessive government intervention in economic decision making is what causes depressions... it's amazing we aren't in one.
    I'm also thinking that if we hadn't built up the deficit by borrowing from the Chinese, language would not have been the major problem. I'm very uncertain that going into hock actually kept us out of a 'depression' in the first place.

    It seems there is an argument to be made that we are and have been in what would be considered a 'depression' if there weren't so many 'circuit breakers.' The real question to my mind is, 'have we really avoided a depression or just delayed it, while building up this huge pile of debt?


    "The government is a child that has found their parents credit card, and spends knowing that they never have to reconcile the bill with their own money"-Shannon Churchill


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