$250k, Why Worry About Those Tax Increases?

[fj1200]

I'm also thinking that if we hadn't built up the deficit by borrowing from the Chinese, language would not have been the major problem. I'm very uncertain that going into hock actually kept us out of a 'depression' in the first place.

It seems there is an argument to be made that we are and have been in what would be considered a 'depression' if there weren't so many 'circuit breakers.' The real question to my mind is, 'have we really avoided a depression or just delayed it, while building up this huge pile of debt?

I'm not worried about China as the Japanese have about as much debt and I'm not worried about a depression at this point either. What I see coming, without some tax cuts and some deregulation to get us more competitive globally, is the slow drip of '70s stagnation. I just don't see the 30's because there isn't any real protectionist fervor and the Fed is far more advanced than they were back then. The debt, and more the unfunded liabilities, is the wild card; it's unprecedented for us and I don't see us following the path of Greece, our fundamentals are quite different.

[Kathianne]

I'm not worried about China as the Japanese have about as much debt and I'm not worried about a depression at this point either. What I see coming, without some tax cuts and some deregulation to get us more competitive globally, is the slow drip of '70s stagnation. I just don't see the 30's because there isn't any real protectionist fervor and the Fed is far more advanced than they were back then. The debt, and more the unfunded liabilities, is the wild card; it's unprecedented for us and I don't see us following the path of Greece, our fundamentals are quite different.

I hope you are right in the long term.

[fj1200]

I hope you are right in the long term.

Not that any long-term scenario looks good right now. People will live with a slow drip (almost four years running so far ) and I don't know if the need for drastic change due to serious economic crises will have people looking for the fleeting security of Dem policies or be accepting of some real changes that conservatism could offer (with the right leadership).

[tailfins]

Tailfins i do not have sound.

Then this will get the point across about Obama voters were "turning Japanese".

[April15]

So citizens should pay higher taxes...



But proper planning ensures that no one would pay higher taxes... Thanks for the lesson in why rates have nothing to do with revenues.



Considering that excessive government intervention in economic decision making is what causes depressions... it's amazing we aren't in one.

Have the Bush cuts given you more cash? Most likely not. To return to the pre Bush rates is not bad.
Proper planning only works for some people not all.
And the repeal of Glass-Steagall is what precipitated this latest recession/depression. And a big thanks to The Ray Goon for starting the repeal.

[April15]

I'm also thinking that if we hadn't built up the deficit by borrowing from the Chinese, language would not have been the major problem. I'm very uncertain that going into hock actually kept us out of a 'depression' in the first place.

It seems there is an argument to be made that we are and have been in what would be considered a 'depression' if there weren't so many 'circuit breakers.' The real question to my mind is, 'have we really avoided a depression or just delayed it, while building up this huge pile of debt?

If you could borrow money at .009% interest would you? The interest is technically zero interest except the "loan" is so big.

[jimnyc]

If you could borrow money at .009% interest would you? The interest is technically zero interest except the "loan" is so big.

Not if I couldn't afford the loan, and the money was being handed out like candy, and left the country worse off after spending it.

[April15]

Not handing out welfare and other goodies and bailing out private corporations, would not have put us in a full blown depression. And the bailouts and handouts did nothing at all to prevent a damn thing. The rate of decline of our economy has steadily went downhill. Congress spending what they don't have, year after year after year is what put us in this position. It's real simple - stop all the wasteful spending. That's the only thing that will stop the debt and slowly revive the economy, that and lower taxes and rates. Increasing taxes on the rich will only have them pass it down, just as Obamacare will be passed down to employees and consumers.

I would say the economy is growing. Just not as fast as many would like. One of this nations biggist problems for growth is we make nothing here anymore to sell on the world market. We are a consumer nation by default from the offshoring of manufacturing.

[jimnyc]

I would say the economy is growing. Just not as fast as many would like. One of this nations biggist problems for growth is we make nothing here anymore to sell on the world market. We are a consumer nation by default from the offshoring of manufacturing.

'Cept that many economic indicators has slowly fallen in the past 4 years. Wouldn't growth mean that they have risen?

[April15]

Gotta disagree with you April. Allowing taxes to increase for anybody, like they will in January if nothing is done to stop them. Will only bring more of a recession, more unemployment, and less investment in the economy by the People themselves.

If you are not working, not earning a paycheck, and dependent upon govt. Nothing improves, but we all, eventually become More broke than we are now.

We cannot afford to borrow any more.

Where I live the economy is growing nicely. Construction is up, housing is up and outside of the midwest drought making food go up early next year i can see no reason to expect any slowdown regardless of tax increases.

[April15]

Not if I couldn't afford the loan, and the money was being handed out like candy, and left the country worse off after spending it.

Are you a government? Do you need profit to live? Big difference there. In my view the country was well served by the stimulus but it should have been a little bit bigger than it was.

[jimnyc]

Are you a government? Do you need profit to live? Big difference there. In my view the country was well served by the stimulus but it should have been a little bit bigger than it was.

Please take that statement, and then explain the economic indicators:

America Before President Obama Took Office and Now

	Before	Now	Change
Number of Unemployed1	12.0 Million	13.1 Million	+9%
Long-Term Unemployed2	2.7 Million	5.6 Million	+107%
Unemployment Rate3	7.8%	8.5%	+9%
“High Unemployment” States4	22	43	+95%
Misery Index5	7.83	11.46	+46%
Price of Gas6	$1.85	$3.39	+83%
“Typical” Monthly Family Food Cost7	$974	$1,013	+4%
Median Value of Single-Family Home8	$196,600	$169,100	-14%
Rate of Mortgage Delinquencies9	6.62%	10.23%	+55%
U.S. National Debt10	$10.6 Trillion	$15.2 Trillion	+43%

¹ Number of unemployed in January 2009 and December 2011. http://www.bls.gov/data/#unemployment.
² “Long-term unemployed” means for over 26 weeks; data for January 2009 and December 2011. http://www.bls.gov/data/#unemployment.
³ Unemployment rates in January 2009 and December 2011. http://www.bls.gov/data/#unemployment.
⁴ “High unemployment” means having a 3-month average unemployment rate of 6% or higher. From the Bureau of Labor Statistics’ “Extended Benefits Trigger Notice” for January 18, 2009 and January 22, 2012. http://www.ows.doleta.gov/unemploy/trigger/2009/trig_011809.html and http://ows.doleta.gov/unemploy/euc_trigger/2012/euc_012212.html.
⁵ The “Misery Index” equals unemployment plus inflation. For January 2009 and December 2012. http://www.miseryindex.us/indexbymonth.asp.
⁶ Average retail price per gallon, January 2009 week 3 and January 2012 week 4. http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=EMM_EPMR_PTE_NUS_DPG&f=W.
⁷ U.S. Department of Agriculture, values represent monthly “moderate” cost per family of four for January 2009 and November 2011. http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/USDAFoodCost-Home.htm.
⁸ U.S. median sales price of existing single-family homes for metropolitan areas for 2008 and 2011 Q3. http://www.realtor.org/research/research/metroprice.
⁹ Residential mortgage delinquencies (real estate loans) for 2008 Q4 and 2011 Q3. http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/chargeoff/default.htm.
¹⁰ Values for January 21, 2009 and January 23, 2012. http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np.

[jimnyc]

Are you a government? Do you need profit to live? Big difference there. In my view the country was well served by the stimulus but it should have been a little bit bigger than it was.

And the answer to that question is YES. The cost of living increases and therefore the income on various fronts need to increase as well to meet that increase - or move to the ghetto.

[April15]

'Cept that many economic indicators has slowly fallen in the past 4 years. Wouldn't growth mean that they have risen?

GDP has risen and that is the primary indicator of recession/growth. It has not grown dramatically but considering the depth of the recession that is a good thing. Too fast an expansion would leave the economy open to radical downfalls. Slow and steady is a more secure but frustrating growth.

[April15]

Please take that statement, and then explain the economic indicators:

America Before President Obama Took Office and Now

	Before	Now	Change
Number of Unemployed1	12.0 Million	13.1 Million	+9%
Long-Term Unemployed2	2.7 Million	5.6 Million	+107%
Unemployment Rate3	7.8%	8.5%	+9%
“High Unemployment” States4	22	43	+95%
Misery Index5	7.83	11.46	+46%
Price of Gas6	$1.85	$3.39	+83%
“Typical” Monthly Family Food Cost7	$974	$1,013	+4%
Median Value of Single-Family Home8	$196,600	$169,100	-14%
Rate of Mortgage Delinquencies9	6.62%	10.23%	+55%
U.S. National Debt10	$10.6 Trillion	$15.2 Trillion	+43%

¹ Number of unemployed in January 2009 and December 2011. http://www.bls.gov/data/#unemployment.
² “Long-term unemployed” means for over 26 weeks; data for January 2009 and December 2011. http://www.bls.gov/data/#unemployment.
³ Unemployment rates in January 2009 and December 2011. http://www.bls.gov/data/#unemployment.
⁴ “High unemployment” means having a 3-month average unemployment rate of 6% or higher. From the Bureau of Labor Statistics’ “Extended Benefits Trigger Notice” for January 18, 2009 and January 22, 2012. http://www.ows.doleta.gov/unemploy/trigger/2009/trig_011809.html and http://ows.doleta.gov/unemploy/euc_trigger/2012/euc_012212.html.
⁵ The “Misery Index” equals unemployment plus inflation. For January 2009 and December 2012. http://www.miseryindex.us/indexbymonth.asp.
⁶ Average retail price per gallon, January 2009 week 3 and January 2012 week 4. http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=EMM_EPMR_PTE_NUS_DPG&f=W.
⁷ U.S. Department of Agriculture, values represent monthly “moderate” cost per family of four for January 2009 and November 2011. http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/USDAFoodCost-Home.htm.
⁸ U.S. median sales price of existing single-family homes for metropolitan areas for 2008 and 2011 Q3. http://www.realtor.org/research/research/metroprice.
⁹ Residential mortgage delinquencies (real estate loans) for 2008 Q4 and 2011 Q3. http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/chargeoff/default.htm.
¹⁰ Values for January 21, 2009 and January 23, 2012. http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np.

Before President Obama Took Office and Now
That is one key of the misconception that many people have. Outside of unemployment the rest are legacy facts. Fuel is governed by the futures market.