General Wants Gay Ban Lifted

[Pale Rider]

General Wants Gay Ban Lifted

Military.com | January 03, 2007

In an op-ed published in Tuesday's New York Times, John M. Shalikashvili, retired Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, says Congress should give "serious reconsideration" to "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," the ban on openly lesbian, gay and bisexual military personnel. Shalikashvili, who supported the ban on open service in 1993, writes that "I now believe that if gay men and lesbians served openly in the United States military, they would not undermine the efficacy of the armed forces," and goes on to say that "Our military has been stretched thin by our deployments in the Middle East, and we must welcome the service of any American who is willing and able to do the job."

"'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' is out of step with both the American public and those within our armed forces," said C. Dixon Osburn, executive director of Servicemembers Legal Defense Network (SLDN). "The counsel of military leaders increasingly supports repeal of the law. Congress must, as General Shalikashvili urges, consider the overwhelming evidence of the past fourteen years. If they do, the clear answer is that we must lift the ban."

Shalikashvili, who was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs from 1993 to 1997, joins other senior retired military officers who have called for repeal of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." In May 2006, Lieutenant General Claudia Kennedy, USA (Ret.), the first female three-star officer in Army history, called the law "a hollow policy that serves no useful purpose." Lieutenant General Daniel W. Christman, former superintendent of West Point, recently told The New York Times that "It is clear that national attitudes toward this issue have evolved considerably in the last decade. This has been led by a new generation of service members who take a more relaxed and tolerant view toward homosexuality." Retired Admiral John Hutson, who currently serves as Dean of Franklin Pierce Law School, also recently wrote that "It would be a great tragedy if we didn't take advantage of (the) chance to correct a flawed policy."

In 2003, two retired generals and an admiral 'came out' in the New York Times, and in November 2006 fourteen senior retired military officers urged the First Circuit Court of Appeals to overturn the ban. They wrote that the law "undermines the military's ability to fulfill its primary mission of providing national security by discouraging the enlistment of gay persons qualified to serve their country and by expelling from the military those who have served with honor."

In today's op-ed, General Shalikashvili writes that "Last year I held a number of meetings with gay soldiers and marines, including some with combat experience in Iraq, and an openly gay senior sailor who was serving effectively as a member of a nuclear submarine crew. These conversations showed me just how much the military has changed, and that gays and lesbians can be accepted by their peers."

A December 18th Zogby poll also found that 73% of military personnel polled were comfortable with lesbians and gays.

"General Shalikashvili's statement is the first by a Joint Chiefs Chairman to call for repeal, and as such is enormously significant," said Osburn. "The Pentagon has dismissed more than 11,000 men and women under this law. It is clear that enforcement of 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' is arbitrary. We continue to lose critical personnel who happen to be gay. As General Shalikashvili points out, continuing to keep this law on the books is detrimental to our national security."

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/...RC=airforce.nl

[KarlMarx]

Don't ask don't tell is a pretty good policy in general, not just the military

In another post, I said how much I hate those rainbow stickers on cars. Like I really want to know who is gay.

But, since some people insist on telling us what their sexual preferences are... let me suggest a few of my own (this should be fun!)

BONDAGE
ZOO-PHILE (this one could have a picture of a pony)
SCAT LOVER (a white bumper sticker with a brown streak down the middle)
FETISH
FOOT WORSHIPPER

but here's the one that would offend people the most

S T R A I G H T

[jillian]

Don't ask don't tell is a pretty good policy in general, not just the military

In another post, I said how much I hate those rainbow stickers on cars. Like I really want to know who is gay.

But, since some people insist on telling us what their sexual preferences are... let me suggest a few of my own (this should be fun!)

BONDAGE
ZOO-PHILE (this one could have a picture of a pony)
SCAT LOVER (a white bumper sticker with a brown streak down the middle)
FETISH
FOOT WORSHIPPER

but here's the one that would offend people the most

S T R A I G H T

Not for nothing, someone who has a foot fetish, matched with someone who doesn't mind that (even though it skeeves me), so what?


I think openness would be no different from exposure to any other group you've never had contact with. They'd be humanized. I think people in the trenches, backing each other up, working together with the type of comeraderie that is found in the military, would get to know and understand each other. They would become more than labels like "gay" or "straight" and sexuality would be only one aspect, and a pretty unimportant one at that, of the person. These arguments aren't much different from the arguments which were made when the troops were desegregated and I've never known of a military guy who came out a racist because someone who has your back, has your back, regardless of color. The same is true about gay troops, only they aren't allowed to talk about it. That's the only difference, because no one's saying gays can't serve, it's *openly* gay people who are subject to discharge.

So... the guy next to you in the trenches might be gay, you just don't know.

[darin]

Not for nothing, someone who has a foot fetish, matched with someone who doesn't mind that (even though it skeeves me), so what?


I think openness would be no different from exposure to any other group you've never had contact with. They'd be humanized. I think people in the trenches, backing each other up, working together with the type of comeraderie that is found in the military, would get to know and understand each other. They would become more than labels like "gay" or "straight" and sexuality would be only one aspect, and a pretty unimportant one at that, of the person. These arguments aren't much different from the arguments which were made when the troops were desegregated and I've never known of a military guy who came out a racist because someone who has your back, has your back, regardless of color. The same is true about gay troops, only they aren't allowed to talk about it. That's the only difference, because no one's saying gays can't serve, it's *openly* gay people who are subject to discharge.

So... the guy next to you in the trenches might be gay, you just don't know.

Pipedream, Jillian. And as a black man, it's SO COMPLETELY offensive to see people comparing RACE to sexual preference. There's no 'preference' or 'discovering who he REALLY is' for the Black Man.

[jillian]

Pipedream, Jillian. And as a black man, it's SO COMPLETELY offensive to see people comparing RACE to sexual preference. There's no 'preference' or 'discovering who he REALLY is' for the Black Man.

And evidence suggests that sexual preference is only one of many personality traits for which there is, at a minimum, a genetic predispostion.

My point was that exposure leads to knowledge. Knowledge leads to tolerance. Tolerance leads to judging people on their own merits.

Wouldn't know the color of your skin, hon. It's a non-issue. I like or dislike people on their own merits.

[darin]

And evidence suggests that sexual preference is only one of many personality traits for which there is, at a minimum, a genetic predispostion.

Uh - Jillian? Evidence suggests QUITE the contrary...that's why many of us are scratching our heads; we keep hearing YOUR camp shout things like "People are BORN Gay!" and "It's GENETIC" - without any credible evidence for your position.

My point was that exposure leads to knowledge. Knowledge leads to tolerance. Tolerance leads to judging people on their own merits.

Wouldn't know the color of your skin, hon. It's a non-issue. I like or dislike people on their own merits.

But tolerance is BAD a lot of times - and again, it's not the PEOPLE most of us have a problem with. It's their behaviour. Their preference for distorted, un-natural, and harmful activities.

My skin is sorta an olive-color..not middle-eastern...more white than that.

[OCA]

And evidence suggests that sexual preference is only one of many personality traits for which there is, at a minimum, a genetic predispostion.

My point was that exposure leads to knowledge. Knowledge leads to tolerance. Tolerance leads to judging people on their own merits.

Wouldn't know the color of your skin, hon. It's a non-issue. I like or dislike people on their own merits.

Care to show this evidence which you are so quick to claim but slow to link to? Hint.....its hard to find because it doesn't exist.

[nevadamedic]

Don't ask don't tell is a pretty good policy in general, not just the military

In another post, I said how much I hate those rainbow stickers on cars. Like I really want to know who is gay.

But, since some people insist on telling us what their sexual preferences are... let me suggest a few of my own (this should be fun!)

BONDAGE
ZOO-PHILE (this one could have a picture of a pony)
SCAT LOVER (a white bumper sticker with a brown streak down the middle)
FETISH
FOOT WORSHIPPER

but here's the one that would offend people the most

S T R A I G H T

[Hagbard Celine]

Don't ask don't tell is a pretty good policy in general, not just the military

In another post, I said how much I hate those rainbow stickers on cars. Like I really want to know who is gay.

But, since some people insist on telling us what their sexual preferences are... let me suggest a few of my own (this should be fun!)

BONDAGE
ZOO-PHILE (this one could have a picture of a pony)
SCAT LOVER (a white bumper sticker with a brown streak down the middle)
FETISH
FOOT WORSHIPPER

but here's the one that would offend people the most

S T R A I G H T

Ooh! Scat lover. That's the one for me!

[Larrymc]

Don't ask don't tell is a pretty good policy in general, not just the military

In another post, I said how much I hate those rainbow stickers on cars. Like I really want to know who is gay.

But, since some people insist on telling us what their sexual preferences are... let me suggest a few of my own (this should be fun!)

BONDAGE
ZOO-PHILE (this one could have a picture of a pony)
SCAT LOVER (a white bumper sticker with a brown streak down the middle)
FETISH
FOOT WORSHIPPER

but here's the one that would offend people the most

S T R A I G H T

Gays are widely excepted, you'd think, they would be happy, but no, they incest you know it, WHY i can think of a couple of reasons, they want to force you to have an opinion of them, so they can argue, or they just want to annoy people

[dirt mcgirt]

In today's op-ed, General Shalikashvili writes that "Last year I held a number of meetings with gay soldiers and marines, including some with combat experience in Iraq, and an openly gay senior sailor who was serving effectively as a member of a nuclear submarine crew. These conversations showed me just how much the military has changed, and that gays and lesbians can be accepted by their peers."

I honestly don't have a problem with gays serving in the military but this doesn't make sense...a policy is still a policy. How can someone in the navy be openly gay?

(I know the majority of sailors are gay but didn't know they could do it openly. )

[retiredman]

good question....I think it is a matter of applying "don't ask don't tell" as literally as possible.... and that means that "don't act" is not part of the equation. A sailor can act "openly gay", as long as he keeps the sexual aspect of it private and off the ship.... and commanding officers may "know" that a sailor is gay, but until the sailor comes out and says so, the skipper will not ask the question....especially if the sailor knows his job and does it well.

[dirt mcgirt]

good question....I think it is a matter of applying "don't ask don't tell" as literally as possible.... and that means that "don't act" is not part of the equation. A sailor can act "openly gay", as long as he keeps the sexual aspect of it private and off the ship.... and commanding officers may "know" that a sailor is gay, but until the sailor comes out and says so, the skipper will not ask the question....especially if the sailor knows his job and does it well.

True, but the article said an openly gay sailor. Plus how did the General meet with gay military personnel?

"Any military personnel who is maybe gay but not really sure, please report to the Inspector General's office for an interview."

[retiredman]

the general is retired.... again...if the service does NOT want to get rid of quality service members who might also be gay.. even announcing that a meeting of members interested in talking with the retired CJCS about gay issues would be ok... and the active duty chain of command would make sure not to take attendance or have any representation at the meeting.

[darin]

I'd like an article showing how many senior leaders are FOR the policy. I bet those against openly (mentally unstable) homos-in-uniform outnumber those FOR, by a margin of 10:1.