Originally Posted by aboutime
Well said !
Proudly Thatcherite
Well said !
Socialism is a reputability deficiency disease ...
aboutime (03-04-2013),Tyr-Ziu Saxnot (03-04-2013)
I've just begun to fight!
I have never found that acting in the best interests of a sworn enemy was a wise move! Even more stupid when that sworn enemy seeks one's total destruction. Call me old fashioned but Israel's biggest mistake has been in ever giving back an inch of land. What has it ever brought them except more civilian deaths and aggression from their enemies? A closer location for the enemy to launch attacks from?
Most Respectfully,
TZS
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively or to the people." (Amendment 10, United States Constitution). Federal government ignores this now!
aboutime (03-04-2013),Drummond (03-05-2013),Robert A Whit (03-04-2013)
Member
Tyr-Ziu Saxnot, et al,
This has been, at least in part, a major aspect of the problem.
(COMMENT)
The "Occupied Territories" are a specially defined landscape. The Palestinians within are considered "Protection of Civilian Persons." There is no greater responsibility of an Occupation Force than the care of those under the jurisdiction of the Occupation.
Working in the best interest of the Palestinians does not necessarily mean that the Israelis must drop their guard. But in the over four decades of occupation, the Israelis could have introduced projects into the Occupied Territory that improved the general plight of the Palestinian, raised the standard of living, advanced economic conditions, fostered industrialization, made advances in the general agricultural production in the area, and put in place such public utilities and works that would have changed the entire complexion of the lands in question. This would have been mutually beneficial to both sides of the equation and may have changed the outcome as we see it today.
Yes, all that may have failed, but we will never know because it was not tried.
In the face of not being a benevolent Occupation Power, the Israelis have lost a tremendous amount of good will and understanding for their cause.
Most Respectfully,
R
Senior Member
They have done that by controlling and witholding Palestinian tax revenues whenever they feel like it.
Does bombing the factories, and uprooting centuries old olive and citrus groves count?
Well they "improved" this power station. Just look at the power output!
I agree. If they had been better neighbours and integrated into Palestinian society instead of waltzing in and taking everything by force, we would not be where we are today.
اشهد ان لا اله الا الله و اشهد ان محمدا رسول الله
RoccoR (03-06-2013)
Proudly Thatcherite
Yes, well, if you had your way, everybody would see Israel as The Big Bad Villain, instead of the TRUTH, which is that they've suffered murderous terrorist attacks from Palestinians for years.They have done that by controlling and witholding Palestinian tax revenues whenever they feel like it.
Does bombing the factories, and uprooting centuries old olive and citrus groves count?
Well they "improved" this power station. Just look at the power output!
I agree. If they had been better neighbours and integrated into Palestinian society instead of waltzing in and taking everything by force, we would not be where we are today.
It amazes me (and I know I've said this before) that Israel is anything like as tolerant as it invariably proves itself to be. I happen to think that they SHOULDN'T be .. they should teach their attackers a never-to-be-forgotten lesson, one major enough to make their opposition understand they can never, ever, win.
Terrorism needs to be defeated. No ifs, buts or maybes, no equivocations, no excuses. Just WIPED OUT.
If you don't like that, Jafar, too bad.
Tyr-Ziu Saxnot (03-05-2013)
I've just begun to fight!
Just how benevolent should one be to a group of people that have vowed to never stop attempting to destroy you? A group that takes hundreds of millions of dollars to buy weapons to use against you instead of using that money to improve their own lot in life!
Sure , if they had done those things Israel's reaction would have been to do many of the things that you suggested.
Good works begets more good works. Evil begets a harsh and wicked harvest.
Justice is a double edged sword that cuts deeply those deserving it's special attention...
Most Respectfully,
TZS
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively or to the people." (Amendment 10, United States Constitution). Federal government ignores this now!
Drummond (03-06-2013)
Senior Member
Simple. They started it by invading Palestine and forcing people from their ancestral homes.
اشهد ان لا اله الا الله و اشهد ان محمدا رسول الله
Senior Member
If we're going to discuss ethnic cleansing, how about we include Cyprus in the discussion?
The Turkish Muslims attacked the sovereign nation of Cyprus in 1974, and was condemned unanimously the United Nations for doing so. They seized Christian properties and ethnically cleansed the Orthodox Christians out of the northern 1/3 of the country.
To this day they illegally occupy the internationally unrecognized Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.
Israel was created by the United Nations... the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus was unanimously condemned by the United Nations.
Yet, which one is allegedly some kind of international disgrace in the daily liberal news media? Israel, of course....
Tyr-Ziu Saxnot (03-06-2013)
Member
jafar00, et al,
There several conversations that touch this subject.
(COMMENT)
There is no ground in which either side can claim being totally in the right. Both sides have dirty hands; pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian.
There is no one group of influential elements that can claim, they have made all the right decisions. The UN/LoN, the Mandatory, Jewish Agency/Israelis, Arab/Palestinians and Arab League, or the neighboring countries, and (of course) the group that has come to be known as the Quartet, have all made very poor decision; and all have some responsibility in the outcome we see today. But, blame, responsibility, and influence all come in varying degrees of culpability. The Israelis have much to account for; but then, the malevolent nature of the Arab League and the Palestinians have also contributed greatly to the ever increasing deterioration of the overall situation. Anyone who believes that either one side or the other is totally right or totally wrong is standing on naive ground. There is no finger in this pie that could not have done better in pursuing a path that would have achieved a peaceful solution. But it seems that everyone had an agenda; and they put that agenda up front - ahead of a peaceful solution.
Most Respectfully,
R
Member
Tyr-Ziu Saxnot, et al,
This is a not a difficult question. But it is a very hard answer.
(COMMENT)
There is no question that, over time a series of very poor decisions by a number of entities, have lead to a cascade failure in achieving a workable and viable peace. Like accrued interest, the complexity and the violence was compounded over each successive engagement. That means the longer the violence and corruptive influences are allowed to fester, the more difficult it becomes to correct the situation and turn it around towards peace.
The Israelis, being the stronger - the more powerful - the better situated, must take the greater risk and being prepared to pay the higher price for the peace (accrued interest). The Israelis are going to have to take the Lion's share of the pain. The question on: "how benevolent" is answered by: "as benevolent as it takes" to lead in the reasonable outcome for success.
Does this mean that the Palestinians have to show no effort. Of course not. But the level of expectation must be lower, given the number of generations that violence has become ingrained into the culture.
Most Respectfully,
R
Not so junior as all that
How about we all forget about it?
That's what both Bush and Obama administrations decided to do, and that was good.
This is Not Our Problem and it's never, ever, ever going to be solved.
Until some big cataclysm someday, but I suggest we don't hold our breath waiting for that. It's been 50--100 years.
I am so bored with Israel and the Palestinians.
RoccoR (03-06-2013)
Senior Member
Why bring Cyprus into the conversation. at has nothing to do with Israel.
Didn't this thread start with the subject of Israel's continued illegal settlement building?
اشهد ان لا اله الا الله و اشهد ان محمدا رسول الله
Proudly Thatcherite
'THEIR ANCESTRAL HOMES' .. ?????
I've really had enough of this. Time, Jafar, for a dose of realism, and not this 'Palestinians have national identity, are much oppressed, and by marauding invaders' rot.
Palestinians - and if anything, this is a 'kind' perspective to employ - can be likened to squatters who spend a lengthy time in a house they've commandeered. Or, perhaps, as gypsies who claim national identity when all they're doing is driving caravans around in circles ...
Ready for some TRUTH, Jafar ? Are you sitting comfortably ? Then I'll begin ..
http://www.raptureready.com/faq/faq96.html
There never was a Palestinian people or a nation called Palestine. The Arabs invented the term after the fact. The so-called Palestinians lived mostly in Jordan and Syria. Yasser Arafat, the leader of the so-called "Palestinians," is actually an Egyptian!
Back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper "Trouw" published an interview it had with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. This is what he had to say:
"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism.
For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."
There's more.
http://allaboutmuhammad.com/page8.html
There is a preliminary historical fact that must be established; THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A CIVILIZATION OR NATION REFERRED TO AS “PALESTINE!”I hope you're taking notes, Jafar.
The very notion of a “Palestinian Arab nation”, having ancient attachments to the Holy Land going back to time immemorial is one of the biggest hoaxes ever perpetrated upon the world! There is not, nor has there ever been, a distinct “Palestinian” culture or language. Further, there has never been a Palestinian state governed by Arab Palestinians in history, nor was there ever a serious Arab-Palestinian national movement until 1964…three years BEFORE the Arabs of “Palestine” lost the West Bank (Judea and Samaria) and Gaza as a result of the 1967 Six Day’s War (which the Arabs started). Even the so-called leader of the “Palestinian” people, Yasser Arafat, is Egyptian! In short, the so-called Arab “Palestinians” are a manufactured people…a people with no history and no authority…whose sole purpose for existence is to destroy the Jewish State!
Israel first became a nation in 1312 B.C., two thousand years before the rise of Islam! Seven hundred and twenty-six years later, in 586 B.C., these first ancient Jews in the land of Israel (Judea) were overrun and Israel’s First Jewish Temple (Solomon’s Temple) on Jerusalem’s Old City Temple Mount was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, king of ancient Babylon. Many of the Jews were killed, enslaved or expelled; however many were allowed to remain. These Jews along with their progeny and other Jews, who would resettle over the next 500 years, rebuilt the Nation of Israel and also a Second Temple in Jerusalem on the same site as Solomon’s Temple. Thus, the claim that Jews suddenly appeared fifty years ago, right after the Holocaust, and drove out the Arabs is preposterous!
Then, in 70 A.D.(nearly 2,000 years ago), it was the Roman Empire’s turn to march through ancient Israel, known at that time as Judea, and destroy the Second Jewish Temple, slaughtering or driving out much of the Jewish population. The Romans, without success, had tried to impose their many deities on the Jews, but few Jews were willing to submit to the Roman demands regarding their worship, and were certainly unwilling to regard a Roman Emperor as a divine being.
After a succession of uprisings against Roman rule, in which over one and a half million Jews were killed, enslaved or driven out of their homeland, the then Roman Procurator in charge of the area decided to take even another measure in retaliation. Calling his scribes, he asked the historians as to who had been the worst enemies of the Jews in past history. He was told the “Philistines.” Having this determination, he then ordered all maps altered to reflect that the Land of Israel (Judea) would be labeled “Philistia” (further bastardized into “Palaistina”) to dishonor the Jews and obliterate them, if only figuratively, from the map. Hence, the name “Palestine” was invented, and entirely appropriate that this invented name of the Romans would be used by Muhammad’s invented religion of Islam, over 1,800 years later, when initiating its campaign to steal the Jewish homeland.
Over 3,250 years, various Peoples, Religions and Empires marched through Jerusalem, Israel’s ancient capital established by King David. The region was successively ruled by the Hebrews (Jews), Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Maccabeans, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Egyptians, the Crusaders, Mamelukes, the Turks (who indifferently governed the backward neglected territory from the 16th Century until the British drove them out during World War I) and then once again by the Jews in 1948. None bothered, nor were they in the least bit inclined, to build a Nation of their own…EXCEPT the Jews!
It should be noted that in 636 A.D., when the Arab marauders of Muhammad came to the land, and uprooted even more of the Jews, they did not form any Arab nation there…and certainly not a “Palestinian” nation. They were simply “Arabs” who, as did others before them, moved into a geo-political area called “Palestine!” And, remember this one fact…it was not the Jews who “usurped” (a favorite word from the Arab propagandists) the land from the Arabs. It was the Arabs in 636 A.D. who overran and stole it from the Jews! A point: The Dome of the Rock Mosque was constructed atop the ruins of the second Jewish Temple, and not vice-versa!
The Jewish People have the most legitimate “Birth Certificate” of any nation in the world! Every time there is an archaeological dig in Israel, it does nothing but support the fact that the Jewish People have had a presence there for well over 3,000 years. The national coins, the pottery, the cities, the ancient Hebrew texts…all support this claim. Yes, other peoples have passed through, but there is no mistaking the fact that Jews have always had a continuous presence in that land for over 3,000 years. This predates and certainly dwarfs any claims that other people in the regions may have.
Finally ...
http://www.mythsandfacts.org/Conflic...lestinians.pdf
So, Jafar, shall we now see the end of this 'Palestinians have a nation-characterised history in the region and are subject to the tyrannies of Israeli marauders' rot, and finally recognise that 'Palestinian', if it has meaning, has that meaning defined by its race-hatred against the ORIGINAL people to have come from the region.The Palestinians’ claim that they are an ancient and indigenous people fails to stand up to historic scrutiny. Most Palestinian Arabs were newcomers to British Mandate Palestine. Until the 1967 Six-Day War made it expedient for Arabs to create a Palestinian peoplehood, local Arabs simply considered themselves part of the ‘great Arab nation’ or ‘southern Syrians.’
There is no age-old Palestinian people. Most so-called Palestinians are relative newcomers to The Land of Israel.
Palestinian Arabs cast themselves as a native people in “Palestine” – like the Aborigines in Australia or Native Americans in America. They portray the Jews as
European imperialists and colonizers. This is simply untrue.
Until the Jews began returning to the Land of Israel in increasing numbers from the late 19th century to the turn of the 20th, the area called Palestine was a Godforsaken backwash that belonged to the Ottoman Empire, based in Turkey. The land’s fragile ecology had been laid waste in the wake of the Arabs’ 7thcentury conquest. In 1799, the population was at it lowest and estimated to be no more than 250,000 to 300,000 inhabitants in all the land. At the turn of the 20th century, the Arab population west of the Jordan River (today, Israel and the West Bank) was about half a million inhabitants and east of the Jordan River perhaps 200,000.
The collapse of the agricultural system with the influx of nomadic tribes after the Arab conquest that created malarial swamps and denuded the ancient terrace
system eroding the soil, was coupled by a tyrannous regime, a crippling tax system and absentee landowners that further decimated the population. Much of the indigenous population had long since migrated or disappeared. Very few Jews or Arabs lived in the region before the arrival of the first Zionists in the 1880s and most of those that did lived in abject poverty.
Palestinian Nationality is an Entity Defined by its Opposition to Zionism, and not its National Aspirations. What unites Palestinians has been their opposition to Jewish nationalism and the desire to stamp it out, not aspirations for their own state. Local patriotic feelings are generated only when a non – Islamic entity takes charge – such as Israel did after the 1967 Six-Day War. It dissipates under Arab rule, no matter how distant or despotic.
A Palestinian identity did not exist until an opposing force created it – primarily anti-Zionism. Opposition to a non-Muslim nationalism on what local Arabs, and the entire Arab world, view as their own turf, was the only expression of ‘Palestinian peoplehood.’
It's a political, and latterly a TERRORIST, device to fight against Israelis. As your many posts help to illustrate - do they not, Jafar ?
Last edited by Drummond; 03-06-2013 at 04:23 PM.
Tyr-Ziu Saxnot (03-06-2013)
Senior Member
Wait a minute... I thought you were concerned about ethnic cleansing and forcible removal from ancestral homes and stealing territory and stuff?
Or is it that you don't really care about those things when Muslims do it to Christians?
Tyr-Ziu Saxnot (03-07-2013)
Senior Member
More deflection? The Zionist idea that the Palestinians don't exist is just the result of a deranged mentality that tries to cover up the massive humanitarian disaster of their making.
Back to the subject of ILLEGAL ISRAELI SETTLEMENT BUILDING.
You can open another thread about it if you like.
اشهد ان لا اله الا الله و اشهد ان محمدا رسول الله
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