Can any "Old earth" Creationists (*cough 5StringJeff *cough*) Explain this one?

[5stringJeff]

If the days in Genesis 1 were not 24hour periods than the same hebrew word for "day" here implies that we're all to work 6 days (could be 1000 years per day?) and then rest for how long?

8Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work. 10But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. 11For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it.

First, your insinuation that man should work for thousands of years before resting ignores the fact that the Hebrew 'yom' can literally be translated both as "day" and as "age."

Second, the point of the Sabbath is that man is to rest for one day out of seven. Remember, "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mk 2:27, NASB) The pattern that was given was the pattern referenced in Genesis 1: God created for six 'yom' and rested for one.

But, the seventh day is not over. Read:

For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS"; and again in this passage, "THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST." Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS." For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

We can ascertain from this passage that God is still at rest from His creative works; the seventh "day" is still ongoing. Therefore, if the seventh "day" has been ongoing for at least 6000 years (according to YEC timelines), it is not a 24-hour day.

[Doniston]

First, your insinuation that man should work for thousands of years before resting ignores the fact that the Hebrew 'yom' can literally be translated both as "day" and as "age."

Second, the point of the Sabbath is that man is to rest for one day out of seven. Remember, "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mk 2:27, NASB) The pattern that was given was the pattern referenced in Genesis 1: God created for six 'yom' and rested for one.

But, the seventh day is not over. Read:



We can ascertain from this passage that God is still at rest from His creative works; the seventh "day" is still ongoing. Therefore, if the seventh "day" has been ongoing for at least 6000 years (according to YEC timelines), it is not a 24-hour day.

I had good friend ( a now deceased Brethren-in Christ minister) who beleived that five of the six days were 24 Hrs long but the one which accounted for Dino Bones was Millions of years long. I guess that's one way of having your cake and eat it too.

[-Cp]

First, your insinuation that man should work for thousands of years before resting ignores the fact that the Hebrew 'yom' can literally be translated both as "day" and as "age."

Second, the point of the Sabbath is that man is to rest for one day out of seven. Remember, "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mk 2:27, NASB) The pattern that was given was the pattern referenced in Genesis 1: God created for six 'yom' and rested for one.

But, the seventh day is not over. Read:



We can ascertain from this passage that God is still at rest from His creative works; the seventh "day" is still ongoing. Therefore, if the seventh "day" has been ongoing for at least 6000 years (according to YEC timelines), it is not a 24-hour day.

Huh? Now you're throwing in Greek text into the origins of yom?

[5stringJeff]

Huh? Now you're throwing in Greek text into the origins of yom?

No, I'm reading the Bible holistically. Also, note that the seventh day in Genesis 1 doesn't contain "evening and morning."

[Abbey Marie]

Off topic for a sec-

Doniston, your avatar shows a fun sense of humor. Cool!

[Doniston]

Off topic for a sec-

Doniston, your avatar shows a fun sense of humor. Cool!

I would say that we are a litle bit too stuffed shirt-like if we can't poke fun at ourselves now and then. Thanks for the comment.

[Hobbit]

The six days of work plus a seventh of rest are symbolic and practical, not an exact transition from what God did to what man does. Otherwise, why the concept of the sabbath year, the year all slaves were freed, all debts forgiven, and all fields left untilled? Was each day both one day AND one year? If so, doesn't that mean that each of these days could also be 1000 years or even 1 billion?

[LOki]

We can ascertain from this passage that God is still at rest from His creative works; the seventh "day" is still ongoing. Therefore, if the seventh "day" has been ongoing for at least 6000 years (according to YEC timelines), it is not a 24-hour day.

I see no point in assuming that God would choose to be ambiguous with His language. As long as there are perfectly good, and unambiguous terms for day and age, there's no point in being ambiguous about their use:

yom = day
'olam = age

God rested on the seventh day, He may still be resting, and a day still means 24 hours, just as it did when God created them.

[Hobbit]

I see no point in assuming that God would choose to be ambiguous with His language. As long as there are perfectly good, and unambiguous terms for day and age, there's no point in being ambiguous about their use:

yom = day
'olam = age

God rested on the seventh day, He may still be resting, and a day still means 24 hours, just as it did when God created them.

What about being poetic? I don't know Hebrew, but I know in English, saying, "Back in the day when men were men," sounds a lot better than saying, "Back in the ambiguously defined period of an undetermined amount of years when men were men..."

[LOki]

What about being poetic? I don't know Hebrew, but I know in English, saying, "Back in the day when men were men," sounds a lot better than saying, "Back in the ambiguously defined period of an undetermined amount of years when men were men..."

I hear you Hobbit. The poetic, interperative, alternative means that one must accept that the Bible can only be authoritative for one's self, and grants no authority, or means, by which to judge others--and for those others, likewise. I could embrace that point of view.

I just prefer to argue that the Author of the Bible said what he meant, and did not choose style over substance.

[eighballsidepocket]

Here's one Old Earth Christian's answer to this debate.

Regards, eightballsidepocket

http://www.reasons.org/resources/apo...dstudies.shtml

Word Studies in Genesis One
by Hugh Ross, Ph. D.
Genesis One
1. In the beginning God1 created2 the heavens5 and the earth20. 2. Now the earth2O was formless and empty7, darkness was over the surface of the deep8, and the Spirit9 of God1 was hovering21 over the waters. 3. And God1 said, "Let there3 be light," and there was light. 4. God1 saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5. God1 called the light "day"19 and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening22, and there was morning23... the first day19. 6. And God1 said, "Let there3 be an expanse10 between the waters to separate water from water." 7. So God1 made4 the expanse10 and separated the water under the expanse10 from the water above it. And it was so. 8. God1 called the expanse10 "sky5." And there was evening22, and there was morning23... the second day19. 9. And God1 said, "Let3 the water under the sky5 be3 gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear24." And it was so. 10. God1 called the dry ground "land" and the gathered waters he called the "seas." And God1 saw that it was good. 11. Then God1 said, "Let the land produce25 vegetation26; seed11-bearing plants29 and trees12 on the land that bear fruit13 with seed11 in it, according to their various kinds27." And it was so. 12. The land produced28 vegetation26: plants29 bearing seed11 according to their kinds27 and trees12 bearing fruit13 with seed11 in it according to their kinds27. And God1 saw that it was good. 13. And there was evening22, and there was morning23... the third day19. 14. And God1 said, "Let there3 be lights30 in the expanse10 of the sky5 to separate the day19 from the night, and let them serve as signs31 to mark seasons and days19 and years. 15. And let there3 be lights30 in the expanse10 of the sky5 to give light on the earth20." And it was so. 16. God1 made4 two great lights30... the greater light30 to govern the day 19 and the lesser light30 to govern the night. He also made4 the stars. 17. God1 set14 them in the expanse10 of the sky5 to give light on the earth20, 18. to govern the day19 and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God1 saw that it was good. 19. And there was evening22, and there was morning23... the fourth day19. 20. And God1 said, "Let the water teem with living creatures15, and let birds fly above the earth20 across the expanse10 of the sky5." 21. So God1 created2 the great creatures16 of the sea and every livingl7 and moving thing17 with which the water teems, according to their kinds27, and every winged bird according to its kind27. And God1 saw that it was good. 22. God1 blessed them and said, "Be3 fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth20." 23. And there was the evening22, and there was morning23... the fifth day19. 24. And God1 said, "Let the land produce28 living creatures17 according to their kinds27: livestock32, creatures33 that move along the ground, and wild aniaals34, each according to its kind27." And it was so. 25. God1 made4 the wild animals34 according to their kinds27, the livestock32 according to their kinds27, and all the creatures33 that move along the ground according to their kinds27. And God1 saw that it was good. 26. Then God1 said, "Let us make4 man18 in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock32, over all the earth, and over all the creatures33 that move along the ground." 27. So God1 created2 man18 in his own image, in the image of God1 he created2 him; male and female he created them. 28. God1 blessed them and said to them, "Be3 fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth20 and subdue35 it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature34 that moves on the ground." 29. Then God1 said, "I give you every seed11-bearing plant29 on the face of the whole earth20 and every tree that has fruit with seed11 in it. They will be yours for food. 30. And to all the beasts34 of the earth20 and all the birds of the air and all the creatures33 that move on the ground... everything that has the breath of life in it ...I give every green29 plant for food." And it was so. 31. God1 saw all that He had made4, and it was very good. And there was evening22, and there was morning23... the sixth day19. Thus the heavens5 and the earth20 were completed in all their vast array.



Definitions

1. ELOHIYM (plural of Eloahh): the deity; the supreme Being; the true God

-a compound word composed of El (the strong one), and Alah (to bind oneself by an oath); hence, Elohim = the mighty and faithful one

-a uni-plural noun; thus, Elohiym latently implies the Trinity

-the only name used for God in Genesis One; this name is used about 2,500 times in the Old Testament

2. BARA: bring forth something that is radically new; produce that which is new, extraordinary, and/or epochal; produce through supernatural activity

3. HAYAH: become; cause to appear or arise; cause to be made or done; come into existence; come to pass; make into something

4. ASAH: produce; manufacture; fabricate

5. SHAMAYIM (p1.), shameh (sing.): visible dome of the sky above and in which the clouds move; the realm in which the celestial bodies move; the spiritual realm in which God and the angels dwell and operate

-with respect to the above definitions, the Hebrews referred to the three heavens (cf. 2 Cor. 12:2); whenever shamayim is used with the erets(earth), as in 1:1, the combination refers to the entire physical universe

6. TOHUW: desolated; worthless; wasteness; useless; incapable of being utilized

7. BOHUW: empty; void; devoid of existence

8. TEHOM: a great mass of water; the oceans and the seas

9. RUWACH: spirit; breath; wind.

- in conjunction with Elohiym refers to the Holy Spirit

10. RAQIYA: (apparently) visible dome of the sky; (technically, the atmosphere immediately above the surface of the earth)

11. ZERA: embryos of plants, trees, grasses, etc., i.e., the embryos of any plant species

12. ETS: any large plant containing woody fiber

13. PERIY: fod and/or embryos produced by any living thing

14. NATHAN: set; put; place; appoint; bring forth; apply; ascribe; set forth; send out; show; trust; bestow; cause to appear; charge; commit; deliver

15. SHERETS: swarm of small or minute animals

16. TANNIYM: great or large sea animal; monster

17. NEPHESH: vital animals, i.e., animals that clearly manifest the soulish attributes of mind, will, and emotion

18. ADAM: human being; the human race; i.e., animals that clearly manifest spirit attributes. NOTE: there is no evidence for a spirit dimension for the pre-Adamic hominids

19. YOWM: sunrise to sunset; sunset to sunset; a space of time (defined by an associated term); an age; time or period (without any reference to solar days)

20. ERETS: the planet Earth; a land, a country, or a continent; lands, countries, kingdoms or regions

21. RACHAPH: to brood over, cherishing and vivifying; to be tenderly affected; to be moved

22. EREB: the beginning of darkness; dusk, twilight, or nightfall; closing, ending or completion

23. BOCER: the breaking forth of light; dawn, daybreak or morning; dawning, beginning, or origin

24. RAAH: be seen; appear; show forth, cause one to see; to be perceived or beheld; to be considered

25. DASHA: to bring forth herbage; to sprout; to bring forth

26. DESHE: new vegetation; young plants

27. MIYN: species; life4orm

28. YATSA: germinate, bring forth; produce; spring forth; promulgate; to cause to come forth; issue out; proceed

29. ESEB: green plant(s)

30. MAOWR: a luminous body; brightness; light

31. OWTH: signal; sign, measuring mark; token, omen; evidence

32. BEHEMOWTH: large land quadrupeds

33. REMES: rapidly moving vertebrates; rodents and reptiles

34. CHAY: wild mammals; a multitude or mob; that which is lively or fresh

35. KABASH: subject; subdue; subjugate

[Hobbit]

I hear you Hobbit. The poetic, interperative, alternative means that one must accept that the Bible can only be authoritative for one's self, and grants no authority, or means, by which to judge others--and for those others, likewise. I could embrace that point of view.

I just prefer to argue that the Author of the Bible said what he meant, and did not choose style over substance.

The Bible is quite poetic, and I see no reason to think that 'day' was meant to be literal.

[LOki]

The Bible is quite poetic, and I see no reason to think that 'day' was meant to be literal.

I can agree that the Bible is quite poetic; yet I still see no reason that the Bible should be cryptic, thus, I see no reason to assert that "day" was not meant to mean a "day" as we commonly understand it.

[Hobbit]

I can agree that the Bible is quite poetic; yet I still see no reason that the Bible should be cryptic, thus, I see no reason to assert that "day" was not meant to mean a "day" as we commonly understand it.

You might not see a reason for it, but cryptic it is, especially in early Genesis, as it's the only record there is of that world according to Judaism. It isn't until the story of Abraham that the Bible gets specific and literal. I mean, look at the story of Noah. A boat that size couldn't hold every phylum on Earth, much less every species. It was likely a very terrible, very huge, regional event, rather than the whole world. Scientists have even found that conditions allowing such an event were present during that time. However, the Bible says 'the world.'

Then there's Revelation, one of the most cryptic texts of all time.

[LOki]

You might not see a reason for it, but cryptic it is, especially in early Genesis, as it's the only record there is of that world according to Judaism. It isn't until the story of Abraham that the Bible gets specific and literal. I mean, look at the story of Noah. A boat that size couldn't hold every phylum on Earth, much less every species. It was likely a very terrible, very huge, regional event, rather than the whole world. Scientists have even found that conditions allowing such an event were present during that time. However, the Bible says 'the world.'

Then there's Revelation, one of the most cryptic texts of all time.

I think the Bible must certainly appear cryptic to those who would assert that the Bible is inconsistent with reality.

You say that Noah's Ark couldn't hold every phylum on Earth, much less every species; setting aside that the Bible doesn't claim exactly that, I argue you're talking about God here, and He certainly is capable of making Noah's effort achievable, just as written. That's the premise in the subtext, Hobbit--God made this business happen; it was not a "natural" phenominon, and not subject to the rules of "nature." There's no reason to get cryptic, no reason to try to fit the Bible to our notions of the world, and no need to get apologetic about the findings of scientists; what was meant to be said is, is that it all just happened the way it was written.