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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Diamond View Post
    I feel like that's what we did with Germany and Japan. Japan especially fitting your post. Many are upset about us nation building in Iraq and Afghanistan but I can't seem to get a rebuttal out of them when I bring up the Marshall plan.
    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    Didn't we essentially do that? Or try to?
    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    Good questions. But we still have a presence in Germany and Japan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Diamond View Post
    Yes but why the different result? We didn't win the hearts and minds of afghans. There weren't many Nazi believers left in 1960 Munich. From a military standpoint did we not fight to win?
    Comparing WWII to Afghanistan? No, we did not. In WWII, we took out Italy's and Germany's fascist governments and all its leaders. They were Western European nations based on Judeo Christian values. The people didn't have to be "retrained from birth" as we had a common basis to start with. We essentially just chopped the head of the snake and put it back together.

    Add the Cold War. West Germany didn't have a whole lot of time to choose its fate. Us or them.

    Winning the "hearts and minds" could apply to Japan. They do not have a commonality in beliefs with the West. But, we (MacArthur according to Japanese-think) kicked their asses. They were bested in battle by a stronger foe. In the Japanese mind, you study this foe and understand how he accomplished this and adopt whatever you can to put you back at his level as a warrior. Remember when the Japanese were buying up America (so it was stated at the time) back in the 80s? That was the Japanese competing with us in battle on our terms.

    One decision (made by MacArthur not the US in Japanese think) changed the end of WWII Japan that didn't turn it into another "war on terror": We did not prosecute Hirohito. We could have dropped 10 A-bombs on Japan and they'd have fought to the death to the last man to protect their Emperor.

    MacArthur was the military governor of Japan. He dealt with Japanese people fairly and firmly. He'd been in Asia for so long he understood the Asian mind. For all his egotistical BS, he was the right man for the job in that regard. The Japanese people loved him.

    In both instances, you have countries and a people that embraced change for their own reasons.

    Ragheads don't want to change. They still ride camels. They don't want to hear from us. They don't want to hear our idealism. They've been who they are for centuries. They don't want to hear from these shitbag terrorists either. Leave them alone and be whoever you think you are where you're from. I'm fine with that. Except they have these terrorist organizations that demand everybody convert or die. But from the tribal Arab's POV, who are you going to side with? Other Arabs who are a pain in the ass or some outsiders who are telling you everything you think and how you live is wrong? They have something in common with dirtbag terrorists. Nothing with us.

    What if it was us? You come in here and start forcing change at gunpoint and you'll just have to kill me. I'm going to fight. Not because I'm some badass. Because you're an asshole.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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  3. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    Comparing WWII to Afghanistan? No, we did not. In WWII, we took out Italy's and Germany's fascist governments and all its leaders. They were Western European nations based on Judeo Christian values. The people didn't have to be "retrained from birth" as we had a common basis to start with. We essentially just chopped the head of the snake and put it back together.

    Add the Cold War. West Germany didn't have a whole lot of time to choose its fate. Us or them.

    Winning the "hearts and minds" could apply to Japan. They do not have a commonality in beliefs with the West. But, we (MacArthur according to Japanese-think) kicked their asses. They were bested in battle by a stronger foe. In the Japanese mind, you study this foe and understand how he accomplished this and adopt whatever you can to put you back at his level as a warrior. Remember when the Japanese were buying up America (so it was stated at the time) back in the 80s? That was the Japanese competing with us in battle on our terms.

    One decision (made by MacArthur not the US in Japanese think) changed the end of WWII Japan that didn't turn it into another "war on terror": We did not prosecute Hirohito. We could have dropped 10 A-bombs on Japan and they'd have fought to the death to the last man to protect their Emperor.

    MacArthur was the military governor of Japan. He dealt with Japanese people fairly and firmly. He'd been in Asia for so long he understood the Asian mind. For all his egotistical BS, he was the right man for the job in that regard. The Japanese people loved him.

    In both instances, you have countries and a people that embraced change for their own reasons.

    Ragheads don't want to change. They still ride camels. They don't want to hear from us. They don't want to hear our idealism. They've been who they are for centuries. They don't want to hear from these shitbag terrorists either. Leave them alone and be whoever you think you are where you're from. I'm fine with that. Except they have these terrorist organizations that demand everybody convert or die. But from the tribal Arab's POV, who are you going to side with? Other Arabs who are a pain in the ass or some outsiders who are telling you everything you think and how you live is wrong? They have something in common with dirtbag terrorists. Nothing with us.

    What if it was us? You come in here and start forcing change at gunpoint and you'll just have to kill me. I'm going to fight. Not because I'm some badass. Because you're an asshole.
    If the freedom of speech is taken away
    then dumb and silent we may be led,
    like sheep to the slaughter.


    George Washington (1732-1799) First President of the USA.

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  5. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    Comparing WWII to Afghanistan? No, we did not. In WWII, we took out Italy's and Germany's fascist governments and all its leaders. They were Western European nations based on Judeo Christian values. The people didn't have to be "retrained from birth" as we had a common basis to start with. We essentially just chopped the head of the snake and put it back together.

    Add the Cold War. West Germany didn't have a whole lot of time to choose its fate. Us or them.

    Winning the "hearts and minds" could apply to Japan. They do not have a commonality in beliefs with the West. But, we (MacArthur according to Japanese-think) kicked their asses. They were bested in battle by a stronger foe. In the Japanese mind, you study this foe and understand how he accomplished this and adopt whatever you can to put you back at his level as a warrior. Remember when the Japanese were buying up America (so it was stated at the time) back in the 80s? That was the Japanese competing with us in battle on our terms.

    One decision (made by MacArthur not the US in Japanese think) changed the end of WWII Japan that didn't turn it into another "war on terror": We did not prosecute Hirohito. We could have dropped 10 A-bombs on Japan and they'd have fought to the death to the last man to protect their Emperor.

    MacArthur was the military governor of Japan. He dealt with Japanese people fairly and firmly. He'd been in Asia for so long he understood the Asian mind. For all his egotistical BS, he was the right man for the job in that regard. The Japanese people loved him.

    In both instances, you have countries and a people that embraced change for their own reasons.

    Ragheads don't want to change. They still ride camels. They don't want to hear from us. They don't want to hear our idealism. They've been who they are for centuries. They don't want to hear from these shitbag terrorists either. Leave them alone and be whoever you think you are where you're from. I'm fine with that. Except they have these terrorist organizations that demand everybody convert or die. But from the tribal Arab's POV, who are you going to side with? Other Arabs who are a pain in the ass or some outsiders who are telling you everything you think and how you live is wrong? They have something in common with dirtbag terrorists. Nothing with us.

    What if it was us? You come in here and start forcing change at gunpoint and you'll just have to kill me. I'm going to fight. Not because I'm some badass. Because you're an asshole.
    Muslims are --sworn-- to convert , enslave or else totally destroy us!
    Truth is they prefer the totally destroy us part and find it most convenient to sate their natural bloodlusts.
    Idiot politicians ignore that reality -ignore that truth.
    They --CAN NEVER BE TRUSTED!!! -Tyr
    18 U.S. Code § 2381-Treason Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

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