NEW Bi-Partisan report on torture

[revelarts]

Sorry Rev, but you seem to believe the government when they tell you what you want to hear - otherwise it is a grand conspiracy

red if you check what i post carefully you'll notice the lines drawn concerning gov't report and conspriacry. I never claim to support conspiracy in a vacuum,
always with other reports, facts or eyewitnesses.

If this crap were true, the liberal media would be all over it - blaming Bush, and claaing for trials
Here is the ABC link and it shut up BullyP and he fled his own pro terrorist thread
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headline...xclusive-only/
But I have to give you credit Rev, you are busting your ass to make the terrorists out the victim

Red IMO we've shot ourselves in the foot using torture.

When we let part of us become like the monsters chase, what's the point.
A podunk threat of a few hundred guys and we lose all our values? Christian and legal?
It's crazy.
And Red consider this, Abortion doctors have killed far more americans and all the terrorism world wide.

[Missileman]

quote them please

http://www.humanevents.com/2007/11/0...ary-personnel/

http://www.humanevents.com/2008/02/2...ate-mind-game/

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/oliv...erboard-people

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011...-waterboarded/

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...ed-our-own-mi/

http://mattmccool.blogspot.com/2009/...-obama-on.html

And for dessert...go to military.com, search the term waterboarding and scroll down to the comments. You'll find the vast majority of the comments say it's NOT torture. A significant number of those are people who have actually been interrogated using the technique.

[aboutime]

http://www.humanevents.com/2007/11/0...ary-personnel/

http://www.humanevents.com/2008/02/2...ate-mind-game/

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/oliv...erboard-people

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011...-waterboarded/

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...ed-our-own-mi/

http://mattmccool.blogspot.com/2009/...-obama-on.html

And for dessert...go to military.com, search the term waterboarding and scroll down to the comments. You'll find the vast majority of the comments say it's NOT torture. A significant number of those are people who have actually been interrogated using the technique.

Missileman. As you can see. There are some people among us who refuse to believe almost everything...anyone who disagree's with them...might say. They must refuse to believe or they must admit to being generally dumb, and out of touch with reality.
So. They deny, and pretend only they have the right answers. It's all part of the Grand Scheme God made called COMEDY.

[taft2012]

Abortion doctors have killed far more americans and all the terrorism world wide.

This isn't fekkin' math class. How much is spent against how much of a threat is immaterial.

The most legitimate function of government is to protect the lives and property of Americans from international and domestic threats.

Period.

That's what we're doing. We're doing what we're supposed to be doing.

I know you liberals would rather the money went to inner-city duck ponds or some other stupid shit, but sorry, you're shit outta luck.

[Kathianne]

This isn't fekkin' math class. How much is spent against how much of a threat is immaterial.

The most legitimate function of government is to protect the lives and property of Americans from international and domestic threats.

Period.

That's what we're doing. We're doing what we're supposed to be doing.

I know you liberals would rather the money went to inner-city duck ponds or some other stupid shit, but sorry, you're shit outta luck.

You know, I really don't agree with Rev's pov regarding terrorists or even torture. However, liberal he is not. Indeed he is 'conservative' in the mode of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. He's more Jefferson that Washington at that! He's basically an anti-Federalist in most situations.

If you don't know your history, I'm not going to help you out. Let's just say it starts with 'not getting involved in foreign...'

As I said, if you didn't get it, I don't necessarily agree with him, but his no liberal, no pot raising crazed pot head, etc.

[taft2012]

You know, I really don't agree with Rev's pov regarding terrorists or even torture. However, liberal he is not. Indeed he is 'conservative' in the mode of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. He's more Jefferson that Washington at that! He's basically an anti-Federalist in most situations.

If you don't know your history, I'm not going to help you out. Let's just say it starts with 'not getting involved in foreign...'

As I said, if you didn't get it, I don't necessarily agree with him, but his no liberal, no pot raising crazed pot head, etc.

Yeah, he is. He loves protecting criminals. I've pointed out numerous times, in numerous threads, how he is a liberal. Those are times to point out where his positions are not liberal, and certainly in a more compelling manner than "No he isn't."

And getting involved in foreign entanglements in 1800 wasn't especially easy. Especially in light of the fact that we barely had a navy and civilization was an ocean away. And it was never envisioned we'd become the world's premier military power.

Knowing history is only useful if one knows how to apply it practically.

[Kathianne]

Yeah, he is. He loves protecting criminals. I've pointed out numerous times, in numerous threads, how he is a liberal. Those are times to point out where his positions are not liberal, and certainly in a more compelling manner than "No he isn't."

And getting involved in foreign entanglements in 1800 wasn't especially easy. Especially in light of the fact that we barely had a navy and civilization was an ocean away. And it was never envisioned we'd become the world's premier military power.

Knowing history is only useful if one knows how to apply it practically.

You fail in discernment department. Indeed, you're world is simplified with your code, but it's not practical in the long haul, not logically or more importantly, legally.

[taft2012]

You fail in discernment department. Indeed, you're world is simplified with your code, but it's not practical in the long haul, not logically or more importantly, legally.

Interesting. How is my world view "illegal"?

[Kathianne]

Interesting. How is my world view "illegal"?

That those outside of your point of view are suspect. That seems to be all it takes in your world. It would be fine in online world of opinion, not so fine in real world of NYPD.

[Robert A Whit]

They are being trained to resist interrogation.

When I was in the Army, some of the men got shocked while strapped to an electric chair. Nobody gave a darn.

I still trust the lawyers that gave the decision that water boarding, properly done by our CIA, was plenty of misery, but not torture.

[logroller]

http://www.humanevents.com/2007/11/05/waterboarding-a-sereing-experience-for-tens-of-thousands-of-us-military-personnel/


http://www.humanevents.com/2008/02/2...ate-mind-game/


http://cnsnews.com/news/article/oliv...erboard-people


http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011...-waterboarded/


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...ed-our-own-mi/


http://mattmccool.blogspot.com/2009/...-obama-on.html


And for dessert...go to military.com, search the term waterboarding and scroll down to the comments. You'll find the vast majority of the comments say it's NOT torture. A significant number of those are people who have actually been interrogated using the technique.

those are some great sources-- very descriptive of the process-- kudos to you for researching and presenting them. A sincere thanks to you for illuminating those who shared their experience.


There is one huge difference between SERE training and actual interrogation, one is voluntarily and freely entered into and the other is forced. Take something as commonplace as special forces candidates being routinely marched, deprived of rest, food, water... they can quit at any time. The same couldn't be said for the Bataan death march despite many, if not most of the same elements being present. When they break you at enhanced training, you can quit, go home, whatever--you're out. Fail at being water boarded at gitmo, even if you give them what they want=> back to the cell=> no lawyer, no trial, no hope, no possibility of freedom; just bide your time awaiting the next round of water up the nose and fear of death.


If you want to take the utilitarian position that in either two circumstances it's a means to an end, tougher soldiers and getting information, I must caution that such justification has virtually no limits; history proves that incremental encroachments will continue unless some reproach is shown. Maybe waterboarding in accordance with xyz methods is shy of tortuous, I can accept such to be true; but the actual practice of such, unlike the sear training, is occurring under covert conditions and thus immune to the procedural exposition that defines the just and righteous foundation by which We stand. Don't get me wrong, I'm amenable to the concept of a need to know basis but there are limits to what I'm willing to accept as procedural directive, and waterboarding an indefinitely detained unlawful combatant crosses the line-- there's just too many assumptions being made under the radar.

[logroller]

Yeah, he is. He loves protecting criminals. I've pointed out numerous times, in numerous threads, how he is a liberal. Those are times to point out where his positions are not liberal, and certainly in a more compelling manner than "No he isn't."

And getting involved in foreign entanglements in 1800 wasn't especially easy. Especially in light of the fact that we barely had a navy and civilization was an ocean away. And it was never envisioned we'd become the world's premier military power.

Knowing history is only useful if one knows how to apply it practically.

And what happens when the government is breaking the law-- is there not recompense? I understand you're immune under the guise of administrative immunity, but ultimately, is it not the public you answer to-- That same public who is not immune to the laws you administer? To deride the public opinion is to spit in the face of those you seek to protect. I have had my rights violated by an unlawful biometric search by law enforcement; I had provided a state-issued ID, there was no probable cause for a fingerprint scan; and since I'm not a criminal, nothing availed itself; but nonetheless, my rights were violated. You might say that, since no criminal charges resulted from such, I wasn't harmed, but my rights were violated. now maybe he was adrift in the comforts of "just doing the job" and although no procedural exemption of evidence resulted from the act, an officer still broke the law. But you're all too willing to accept 'no harm, no foul' under those circumstances yet, when its a guy claiming asphyxiation is torture you say he's protecting criminal activity. You need to recognize that We are a society of citizens and your personal bias may not be representative of the whole you are sworn to protect.

[red states rule]

And what happens when the government is breaking the law-- is there not recompense? I understand you're immune under the guise of administrative immunity, but ultimately, is it not the public you answer to-- That same public who is not immune to the laws you administer? To deride the public opinion is to spit in the face of those you seek to protect. I have had my rights violated by an unlawful biometric search by law enforcement; I had provided a state-issued ID, there was no probable cause for a fingerprint scan; and since I'm not a criminal, nothing availed itself; but nonetheless, my rights were violated. You might say that, since no criminal charges resulted from such, I wasn't harmed, but my rights were violated. now maybe he was adrift in the comforts of "just doing the job" and although no procedural exemption of evidence resulted from the act, an officer still broke the law. But you're all too willing to accept 'no harm, no foul' under those circumstances yet, when its a guy claiming asphyxiation is torture you say he's protecting criminal activity. You need to recognize that We are a society of citizens and your personal bias may not be representative of the whole you are sworn to protect.

LR as far as I am concerned there is only one "law" when you are at war

WIN!

I still find it amazing there are people like you running around who want to fight the terrorist's bombs and bullets with warrants and court cases. OBL said he would use our own laws against us - and you and others are willing to prove him correct

[red states rule]

Red, If people had not gone to jail because of the kind of torture I'm talking about you might have point. until then , clearly, we are talking about 2 different things. One metaphorical torture, the other actual.

But it's more saddening to me that our country is so fearful and feels so desperately threatened by a handful of fanatics that some want to give up our reputation and principals forever to employee --and regularly advocate-- practices that we all understood to be barbaric and evil only a few years earlier.

Yea, just a few fanatics - nothing to worry about. Many in Germany said the same thing about those guys in black uniforms running around beating people up, and pushing the Nazi party agenda

[logroller]

LR as far as I am concerned there is only one "law" when you are at war

WIN!

I still find it amazing there are people like you running around who want to fight the terrorist's bombs and bullets with warrants and court cases. OBL said he would use our own laws against us - and you and others are willing to prove him correct

Right. "Alls fair in love and war". That's all well and good until you find yourself losing. And then all of sudden there's a great appeal to decency-- right vs wrong. Its funny how fair-weather morality can become. You, like many self-proclaimed conservatives and righteous fellows believe your ideals will prevail despite all evidence to the contrary. You are losing due to you inconsistency-- the profound separation from the fundamental belief in a government bound by codified law. Keep it up rsr; you'll find just flawed tactics are. You might get an "I told ya so" out of it, but you're still fucked. Myself, I'd take an 'I told ya so' over being oppressed. I guess that's why my ideas gain political traction and your's are mere entertainment-- Reality.