Arab World, or America - who needs to change?

[jimnyc]

This debate emanated from a thread started by Alik, about "America needs change". Voted4Reagan then soon requested a one on one debate with Alik, which he accepted.

Alik will go first, and I suppose give his opening argument as to why he thinks America needs to change. Then Voted4Reagan will be second, and can give his opening argument, and also start a rebuttal to Alik's post. Each member will make a post, and then the next, back and forth until each member as made 7 posts apiece. I just chose the number at random, so as not to have the debate turn into repeating posts forever. And I know people have lives, but let's try to get in at least one post apiece per day!

At the conclusion, I will place a poll at the top of the thread for everyone to vote on. In addition to that, we can also grant V4R's request to have certain members judge the outcome - myself, Logroller, Tyr Ziu Saxnot, fj1200 and I'm adding Abbey in as the last judge. Neither is "official" as this is just for fun!

The opponents should use facts, links, sources and put some effort into it, and of course keep the flames/fighting out. These will likely be major factors in deciding who made a more convincing argument.

** Reminder - this is to remain just between these two. Nobody else should be replying in this thread. Any replies outside of these 2 will be deleted and the offender will be banned from this section of the board. **

You're up, Alik!!

[Alik Bahshi]

This debate emanated from a thread started by Alik, about "America needs change". Voted4Reagan then soon requested a one on one debate with Alik, which he accepted.

Alik will go first, and I suppose give his opening argument as to why he thinks America needs to change. Then Voted4Reagan will be second, and can give his opening argument, and also start a rebuttal to Alik's post. Each member will make a post, and then the next, back and forth until each member as made 7 posts apiece. I just chose the number at random, so as not to have the debate turn into repeating posts forever. And I know people have lives, but let's try to get in at least one post apiece per day!

At the conclusion, I will place a poll at the top of the thread for everyone to vote on. In addition to that, we can also grant V4R's request to have certain members judge the outcome - myself, Logroller, Tyr Ziu Saxnot, fj1200 and I'm adding Abbey in as the last judge. Neither is "official" as this is just for fun!

The opponents should use facts, links, sources and put some effort into it, and of course keep the flames/fighting out. These will likely be major factors in deciding who made a more convincing argument.

** Reminder - this is to remain just between these two. Nobody else should be replying in this thread. Any replies outside of these 2 will be deleted and the offender will be banned from this section of the board. **

You're up, Alik!!

1. For many years, America was involved in the Arab-Israeli conflict, which does not give any advantage. All recent U.S. presidents, understanding it take effort to stop the conflict, but are afraid of the Jewish lobby, so the main efforts are being made at the end of his term in office presidency. (See "Late Flowers", http://www.proza.ru/2008/03/23/512)
2. America must understand that Russia has a colonial empire and the beginnings of democracy, Putin is rolling and if America follows the same approach to totalitarian regimes, and then in a relationship with Russia must be clearly determined not to help Russia to get stronger again. Why America has helped Bosnia when Serbia wanted independence, and Russia's military action against the Chechen people closed her eyes? But the situation was the same! This is a consequence of the policy of double standards. Now Russia is stepping up pressure on Azerbaijan strengthens its fleet in the Caspian Sea and a new conflict is brewing (this is I have an article that later will place) and the United States should maintain adequate policies and not venturing unnecessary wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and deprived of support in the confrontation with Russia.

More arguments I have brought all this in the article, "America needs to change" because of which the beginning of this debate.


"Late Flowers"


Predict, especially for the near future - a thankless task. But try, for the upcoming conference in Annapolis, which Bush wants to drive the Israelis and Palestinians, is of particular interest in terms of the last final Mistake American president.

It's no secret that the key solution to the Palestinian problem, however, as the Arab-Israeli conflict, is in the walls of the White House and this - a headache, literally, for each of its owner. To solve the problem - is to force Israel to withdraw from all the occupied territories, which no doubt will cause great indignation of the Jewish lobby in Congress and across this situation you do not want any American president, especially at the beginning of the cadence. Therefore, as a rule, the U.S. president at the end of the term, more to clear my conscience, begin to pursue an active policy in terms of pressure on Israel to persuade Israel to leave the occupied territories. Of all the presidents of the greatest urgency to partial returns showed Clinton, Israeli Arabs, but the murder of Jewish terrorist, Prime Minister Rabin and "on time" dragged out of the safe unfortunate dress Monica Lewinsky negated his good intentions for peace in the Middle East.
Bush, became the master of the White House in the midst of the Palestinian intifada. Rejecting any possibility of a meeting with Arafat, he remained a bystander bloody drama played out. Inaction American military ally of Israel and was the cause of the Arab attack on America.
Since then, Bush begins to act, that is to make mistakes. Hoping to catch Bin Laden, the Americans invaded Afghanistan and smash tallibov that the Israeli-Arab conflict, and if relevant, it is very symbolic and they know where bin Laden is hiding, it would have long since passed him to stay in power. Not finding Bin Laden, Bush takes his anger on Saddam Hussein, the only leader who did not express regret over the tragedy of September 11 and, moreover, suggested that America was punished by God for its aggressive policy.
After hanging instead of Bin Laden Saddam, the sworn enemy of Tehran obscurantist, Bush is so stuck in the sands of the Middle East, which were actually quicksand, the more America makes gestures the more immersed, losing any chance of achieving ... and already knows what.
And now, after a series of political miscalculations, after nearly eight years as president, when the license expires annually, and in real terms, and even less, Bush beginning to address the main problem, the main reasons for the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, namely the Arab- Israeli conflict. In advance we can say that this is good, but too belated idea is doomed, like all the previous ones, to fail. Here there is also the factor of time and the ultimate goals of complete uncertainty of the forthcoming conference, and haste says only one thing - the absolute political illiteracy Bush and all of today's White House administration. Of course Bush could alienate (the Jewish lobby in Congress do not have time to respond), and "twisting arms" into signing the final piece of paper that the two sides back to the promised land, used for its intended purpose. And by the time the baton "headache" go to the next president of America, who traditionally begin preparing bouquet of the world by the end of his term. And for those flowers belated American people are paying the price, because the union of America with Israel no positive component does not have, and creates a huge problem, both in economic terms and in the field of security. 10.11.07.

[Voted4Reagan]

In this my opening statement I would like to welcome my opponent, the moderators and all those who will judge us.

Why the Arab world must change...

Ladies and gentleman... When we look at the world today we see a world in turmoil,. We see a world stuck in what seems to be a self perpetuating cycle of violence.

Or is it?

My opponent says that America must change. I contend that from the days of the original colonial settlers in Jamestown, Virginia we have changed. We have been changing for going on 400 years.

America Started as a Colonial possession of the British Empire and change into the beacon of freedom everyone in the world sees today.

We started out weak, we are now strong. We originally had Slavery, we abolished it. We Broke in half during the Civil War and brought a shattered country back together after the nightmare of our Civil War.

We have survived Wars, Political Scandals, Segregation and Terrorist attacks on our country that killed thousands of of our people. and what have we done? We have always Moved forward and CHANGED.

But...My opponent says that it is America that must change even more. I will submit to all of you that America is ALWAYS changing but it is in fact the Arab world that needs to change.

Since Christopher Columbus discovered the "NEW WORLD" in 1492, We as "AMERICANS" have progressed from an Agrarian based society and Hunter/Gatherers to the worlds leader in Technology in a post industrial society. and we did it in a little bit over 500 years.

The Arab World since 1492 has done little to advance itself. If anything it has remained stagnant in many areas and declined in others. It is imperative that the Muslim/Arab world change in the following areas in order to become contributing members of the world we live in.

The areas they need to change the most are in my opinion as follows:

1. Education - There are 1.4 Billion Muslims in the world today. Of the 1.4 billion Muslims 800 million are illitera2te (6 out of 10 Muslims cannot read)(1). Of the 57 Muslim Majority countries in the world today their are less then 600 universities worldwide to accommodate 1.4 billion people. India with over 1 billion people has over 8000, the United States with just 300 million people has almost 6000. In most Muslim countries women are not permitted to receive an education. Translations of foreign books into Arabic is almost non-existent. Spain translates an average of 10,000 books a year into Spanish. That is more then the Arab world has translated in the last 1000 years! (2)

2. Human Rights - The term Human rights is almost unheard of in the Muslim/Arab world. Most Muslim/Arabic Countries are ruled by Hereditary Monarchical leaders or by Dictators that make all the decisions for everyone. Women are accorded second class status in most Arab/Muslim countries, are not allowed to vote or do many of the things men are permitted to do without fear of arrest, beatings, imprisonment and even death. They in many circumstances are not permitted to work, own property and have lesser standing in the eyes of the law. This would be unheard of here in The United States!

3. Freedom of Religion - In the Arab World there is no Freedom of Religion. You must practice Islam or face the possibility of being charged with Apostacy. The Penalties for which are Arrest, Imprisonment and even Death. Islam and the Muslim world restricts even allowing people of Jewish Birth to travel within their countries. Israeli passports are accepted in only a few Muslim Majority States and most Arab/Muslim states refuse to acknowledge the existence of the state of Israel! Christians, Jews and other non-believers of Islam are accorded second class status and are routinely harassed, attacked and Murdered because they choose not to renounce their faiths and practice Islam. The Muslim world has allowed Islam to become the Religion mandated by the Government. Here in America our Constitution MANDATES that the government is not allowed to mandate or establish a religion sponsored by the state. We are free to worship as we see fit. Muslims are not. You can not convert to Christianity in a country where Islam is the religion of the state.

These are a few of the things that must change in the Arab/Muslim world. I would like my esteemed opponent in this debate to address the following question in his reply.

Why do the Muslim/Arabic Countries deny people fundamental rights such as access to a quality education, Deny them basic human rights, hold women as lesser individuals then men and why is Islam the only allowable religion?

Show us Alik Bahshi how as you claim it to be that America must change and not the Arab/Muslim world.

From what I see the Arab Muslim world already lags far behind the western countries.

Your turn sir...



Cited Sources:

1. Dr Farrukh Saleem - What went wrong? - The News International, November 8, 2005

2. Rima Khalaf Hunaidi, Abdel Latif Youssef El Hamed, Nader Fergany - Arab Human Development Report 2002 - United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), ISBN

[Alik Bahshi]

As I understand the debate arose under “America needs change ". There I was talking about the change in policy in relation to Russia and theArab-Israeli conflict. Theimpression that you have read only the article title and lead a debate based onthe title of the article without knowing its meaning. I absolutely agree that due to the policy of America, especially during theReagan managed to put the evil empire, called the Soviet Union as ZbigniewBrzezinski, on his knees. America and the world gladly accepted the democratic changes in Russia, but with thecoming to power of Putin all returned back to totalitarianism and unfortunately America did not respond to it properly. Forexample, President Bush called Putin not only as a "friend of Putin."When Putin was destroying the Chechen nation America has closed its eyes, and infact the situation in Chechnya was a replica of the situation in Bosnia. Why America went to war with Serbia? Yes,it was necessary to protect Bosnia from Serbia and America did the right thing here. Of course Russia is not Serbia, but that America has not made any protest toRussia. This is called a policy of double standards.
Further,Article I see American policy in the Middle East region. Iargue that America should put an end to the Arab-Israeli conflict that has been going on for many years due to the fault of America, and all presidents realize that it is time to put things in the world, but are afraid of contact with the Jewish lobby. The appearance in the White House, Obama suggested I predicted what Obama will change American policy in the Middle East, hence the name of the theme,"America needs change." America,supporting Israel's policies, spoils his country as image defender of democracy and justice. I applaud Obama's policies, which have finally decided to change the passivity ofAmerica and force for peace between Arabs and Jews. In these matters, I meant to change the political vector of America.

As for your wishes change of Arab society, it is in recent times it has finally beginning so intense began to emerge, that we observe in several Arab countries. By the way, I want to note that Israel beware of these changes. The fact that the dictator, Bashar al-Assad for example, is more concerned about maintaining the authority and example of his more or less happy with thepreservation of peace with Israel. However, if Syria will come to power people's forces and establish a democracy,or something close to it, then Syriacould increasingly demand the return of the Israeli-occupied territories.
In about, the total backlog in the Arab world from the West, what do you pay attention, and that is not included in the text of my article, "America needs change," I tell you what. Civilization advances are not the same in all the World. So when the Arabs were astronomical calculation, by the way algebra is the word of Arabic origin, as well as chemistry, Europeans went to a club on Forests. In this age of information for which the distances are no longer a hindrance I think the people will not be dramatically different in development, as it was inancient times.

Still, I'd like to debate more specifically on the content of the article, and not of such vast concepts that you invest in change.I repeat it is concerned only with the change of U.S. policy in relation to Russia and the Arab-Israeli conflict.

[Voted4Reagan]

Still, I'd like to debate more specifically on the content of the article, and not of such vast concepts that you invest in change.I repeat it is concerned only with the change of U.S. policy in relation to Russia and the Arab-Israeli conflict.

You accepted the debate on a broader scope my friend... and on a broader scope it shall stay. To pigeon hole this debate on a specific point of a nations sovereign policy provides no answers to what is truly happening in the world today.

The Arab/Muslim world is almost 1000 years behind the West in it's approach to government. There is no Freedom of speech, there is no freedom of religion and Education for anyone but the children of the ruling class is almost non-existent. Religion and Government are intertwined and there is no choice allowed in respect to personal faith. Islam is imposed upon everyone in these countries from their date of birth. There are no options.

Take a look at the West... Why is it that Islam is a Minority religion all Western Countries? Why is it not as popular? Why are Western Countries not as accepting?

It is simple. Islam is roundly and flatly rejected in societies where Education, equal rights, and Freedom of Speech and Religion are established. In Western Societies we value Personal Choice. The right to say what we like, the right to associate with who we like and the right to worship the Faith of our own Choosing.

The Muslim Majority Countries where Islam is the prevalent have the highest percentages of uneducated and subjugated peoples in the world. There is no Choice in this... in Most Muslim Countries you must accept Islam without question. To not do so leads to Arrest and possibly death. This is due to one reason: Islam preys upon the uneducated and the fear of the poor.

In the west we are educated and free to choose in all aspects of our lives, with higher education comes self awareness, an increased sense of self worth, understanding and higher levels of thinking. We become aware of the choices we have and the liberation provided to us by learning. When a person frees their mind they are truly free. Free to do anything they can possibly imagine.

Education sparks creativity, Scientific advancement, advances in art and literature and an increase in the standard of living for the peoples involved. It leads to self reliance and ones desire to have government play a minimal role in our day to day lives. This is NOT true in Muslim Society. The Muslim Majority Countries prefer that their people remain uneducated and uninformed, they keep women subjugated and illiterate, they allow no outside books or ideas and the media is heavily censored to reflect what the state wishes the people to know. They are fed a steady diet of Islam, of intolerance to other cultures, a hatred of Israel and a jealousy of the United States. Muslim people have little access to the Internet and the free flow of information into Muslim Majority countries is heavily Fire Walled.

Why does this happen? Because it is easier to control the uneducated. Islam is a religion of control, it controls all the actions of its peoples lives. In western culture we the people control our day to day lives.. not the Bible, not the Government. WE CONTROL OUR OWN DESTINY.

Islam is failing... You mention Algebra... yes...Algebra was invented in the Muslim world, by the PERSIANS. But that was back in the Renaissance. ALMOST 700 YEARS AGO! That has NO bearing on the Contributions of todays Muslims Countries. What have they done in the last 100 years to contribute to the world? Where are the Nobel prizes? Where are the academic institutions? Where are the Women in Government and the Workplace?

Arab/Muslim culture has been Stagnant for centuries. It can not advance due to it's lack of educational opportunity to the masses. These countries will remain the most backward and poorest in the world till this is resolved.

Muslim countries MUST provided Education to ALL PEOPLE if they are to advance.

Muslim Countries must treat women as 100% Equals in all things if they are to advance.

Muslim Countries must seperate Government from Religion and embrace Secular Agendas if they are to be accepted.

The Islamic Clerics must preach a doctrine of peace and acceptance of ALL PEOPLE. This include all faiths... yes, including the acceptance of Israel and the Jewish Faith. The Clerics must call for an end to the use of Violence and pursue peace.

None of these things are being done... They must be done or the Muslim nations and Islam will be stuck in the 10th Century forever. Eventually they will cease to be relevant and become third world nations again when the Oil runs out.

The Clock is Ticking.

(Your Turn Ali Bahshi)

[Alik Bahshi]

Well, you went on your theme, "America needs to change" and crossed over to the general backwardness of the Arabs from the West at this time. I agree with you and I see no reason to disagree with you. But then again, I want to note that in ancient times it was the opposite. By the way, the word algebra is of Arab origin, not Persian, as well as chemistry and numbers are called in Arabic. What reasons led to the fact that the Arabs lost the championship West does not know, but I think that the reason is that the Arabs have paid more attention to the spiritual world, and the Europeans - the material to be more pragmatic. I also believe it has also had a negative impact religion - Islam, however, as Christianity in Europe. I see that you are in Islam and see the negative and here I fully agree with you. But I want to add that Christianity as a religion in its time has shed a lot of blood, remember the era of the Crusades, and the opposition of Catholics with Protestants are no better than a war between Sunnis and Shiites. Moreover in Islam there is no compulsion in Islam the idea can not be said about Christianity. Remember how the Spaniards forcibly baptized Native American or the British in Africa and Polynesia. Sorry, but I remember that the two world wars with millions of victims, and with the use of nuclear weapons also came from civilized Europeans. Do not think that I am a believer in any religion in particular, I believe that evil religion that divides people into friends and foes. Especially a lot of evil brought monotheism. Belief in one God was the misfortune to people. When was polytheistic, no religious wars, all lacked the gods, and everything changed with the belief in one God. By the way, democracy originated in the ancient world.

You also began, as I understand, to compare the culture of the West and the East, which I think is pointless. It is, after all, the ideology of racism. In one of the articles I quoted writer V.Grosmana:
"With the insidious ease nationalism of the people loses its noble foundation, he becomes formidable, he becomes a pathetic, not causes, and to humiliate. So trying to prove some kind of disability, a person discovers his own. Some of my interlocutors in all areas of human creativity, especially singled out the Armenian national priority in architecture, science and poetry. They emphasized the superiority of the architectural merits of the temple of Garni over what seemed to them the primitive architecture of the Acropolis: speaking about the poet Tumanyan tried to convince me that the genius of Pushkin's genius Tumanyan above. The bottom line of course is not that there is not a perfect architecture of the architecture of the Acropolis Harney, a genius if Tumanyan than Pushkin, the essence and the essence of course sad, is that poetry, and architecture, science, and history itself, by essentially in the conversations of some of my buddies are no longer meant. They mean only to discover the superiority of the Armenian national character and national character of the other nations. Poetry is not important, but it is important only to prove that the Armenian national poet above example, Russian or French poet. My interlocutors, without noticing that deplete their heart and soul in that ceased to enjoy poetry, architectural excellence, the greatness of science, as seen in poetry and science is only a means to assert their national superiority. This desire is so fanatical, narrow, it seems that the minutes of the manifestation of insanity. "(" Banner ", H.11, 1988)
You like that Armenians are trying to humiliate others, to prove their lack of talent, and bring proof of the level of culture, forgetting that the culture of the ancient world with a civilization that is born in the East.

[jimnyc]

This debate has ended. I am creating a public poll for everyone to vote on. I will also gather together the official judges and we will give a tally ASAP

[jimnyc]

The poll that is open to everyone will stand for itself. Prior to the debate, it was agreed that myself, Abbey, Logroller, fj1200 and Tyr would be independent judges. I assumed I would just give a final tally without names, so that the number would stand by itself, and one could not pick apart the judges. But I think everyone will know how we all voted when I say the final tally was 5-0 in favor of V4R.

With that said, thank you to both participants for agreeing to debate.